camelot-forum.co.uk

Apologies to clockman FRA in advance...

Background, I was in Stevenage Costco yesterday buying an end of season foamie surfboard
Whilst eying up the stack of boards (other like-minded folk came along) ...we got into the subject of BEVS (they have the Merc bev B class) charging, solar & their normal holiday house slap bang on the beach front (kids, watersports, surfing etc) & find themselves sharing space with a somewhat highfalutin entitled "helicoptered in" bunch of international tourist types who stay at an obviously upmarket hotel nearby, ..I gathered they are aware therefore of potential away as to nimby's declaring solar panels "Une pollution visuelle"

This also acts as an identifier if he checks out Camelot, (which I mentioned as well as you) as I thought you may be the one with the most experience dealing with French regulatory bodies.mayors, edf quirks, Gallic spanners thrown, dignitaries to win over etc (accepting it will be different region to region) to point vaguely in the right direction.

It's hard enough to be set up with solar here right now, no idea about France, I don't see much solar there had a smidgen on the valley floor approaching Sallanches (haute savoie)

What's changed (in theory) out your way & what's your take!?

(When we hike in chamonix I like the idea of a cheap out of town small barn hut type place, ..it's all we could afford anyway, to leave our kit & rough it, which of course would be looking at solar to take up some slack for a bit of energy independence, so I'm keen to be up to date too) ..there are a few rustic some files places not much bigger than Joe's man cave that appeal.

Hi Gus,

About 12 years ago France made laws that allowed anybody to make their own RE electricity, ie, 'autoconsumption'. And you just need to fill in some forms a 'Declaration of Works', and Further laws were implemented that meant you just need verification of a PV install on your house roof, if its a ground mount array then it must not exceed 1.8m high.

EDF stuck there boot in and said that a normal domestic property can only Grid tie up to 3KW.

However, if you house is in a conservation area or within seeing distance of an historic listed building, or in a National Park then verification permission is not granted, PV install is a NO NO.

Commercial installs are happening but business here moves very slowly, recently a nearby new ALDI store has the whole roof covered in PV, but the restrictions were that the side of the building had to rise up a bit so from the ground you cannot see the PV on its little sloping arrays as the Aldi roof is flat.

Its the wild west regards PV installs, and some real dodgy goings on. The commercial business world here is very different and i could discuss that for hours.
Independent commercial big business is normally linked to the local departments so nothing moves that fast. But when it does it happen they get on with it.
France is a Republic and they keep reminding you of it.

My opinion why you don’t see much PV, The pushers are an older generation they do not see the reason and besides Pv is not pretty. Politicians spout but need big business to come up with solutions, that takes time. Money, is real scarce here very few independent folk have much money to just go for an install.
Remember the French government have access to your Bank accounts and they can and do just take money out of your accounts. Most folk still like cash here. Cards, cheques etc the Tax folk here see it so most business don’t exactly rush after your custom as the more you earn here the more tax you pay. Again, i could go on for hours on this complicated subject.

As you can see from my doings we here use the system to get around things and boy the French are good at that. Facts and figures are all taken with a pinch of salt here.

Our 9.6KW PV array is 3.2m high that breaks a simple install rules, so we applied under Agricultural laws as that part of the garden could be seen as where we put sheep. So it went to the Agri commission for approval. Mrs had a chat with them before the meeting on the phone and they are delighted to see that we have put our array on "Stilts" as they put it and sheep can go underneath. But we/I had thought this one out, as the Agri commission don’t like PV arrays as the land underneath becomes non Agri land, and there is us with sheep grazing under and around. However, Mrs said if you turn us down then my Hubby will redesign and drop the array to max at 1.8m high, and the land underneath becomes useless for Agri and sheep grazing.
Our Local Marie and council think we are okay and the clerk of the council started tittering that we had caught both planning commissions by the short and curlies., if you get my drift.

But that is years of experience and understanding the culture here.
Sorry for rambling but i hope you get the drift, and as you can see nothing is simple here.

Obviously, i am on French 'Auto consumption' forums and reasonable active, but true independent info here is non existent, so i have published in French some of my stuff and info on good products and actual real costs around Europe. We are seen as a very unusual RE and Sustainability Project and the fact that we are independent and receive no funding just freaks them out.

Nope, context is good (my brain works better that way) so don't apologise,
Thanks for the info, if the guy I spoke too were to have problems then it sounds like proximity to a famous hotel visited by the *living* kennedy family might play influence I tried looking up for French streets named after them, but got no-where otherwise I'd have included that info in case it bore relevance

So, for us there may be good reason to build an outdoor solar storage area on a small plot if we saw them come up, (some nigh on shacks,, but habitable, just down from one of the glaciers ..pretty quiet) ..with that in mind I'll dream a bit harder.

The thing is Gus, as i said there are very few folk who can grasp the basics, and there French Info is real bad.

I have done a couple of courses, very hands on, that start from the basics with PV all the way to complete systems.

I will attach a English translation in my next post, but this is what i try to do for normal folk so excuse the simplicity of my Document. Yes even the so called professional guys here in France, just electricians that are solar monkeys and follow the manual, really only going on just the manufacturers marketing and sales hype.

Very gracious of you clockman, (& taken on board for when we chat to locale *if* we get out (winter covid is yet to be seen & lived through)

It will be a handy reference point for incoming members I'm certain.

I feel sure this document will upset forum members here..........?
Here we go..........


Hi ,

It’s the WILD WEST out there.

I have been R&D independent non commercial on Renewable energy and True sustainability for over 20 years now, yes things have changed and PV has become more efficient.

In general, across the world, actual complete systems that do everything are rare and very expensive for what they actually are.

So sorry, but if you are interested in setting up your own systems then you are going to have to sit down and go back to tech college and learn from all the folk who have something and actually running it. Beware there are loads of armchair wafflers in RE.

Most small off grid systems like to take PV which has a DC output and charge a battery bank and have a standby generator for those murky days..
This battery bank then runs a main Inverter that takes DC at 12v, 24, and 48vdc and converts it to 230vac at 50HZ or 60HZ. Very Few small Main Inverters are actual Pure Sine wave, so some motor driven appliances may not work correctly.
…………..

Then there are slightly larger systems built around a normal Utilities connected electricity supply. And the PV DC output now goes to a GTI, Grid tied Inverter, that uses the Utilities Grid to sync- with and then pushes the AC voltage up a few volts and backfeeds to the Utilities Grid, and your meter goes backwards, (not any more but you get the drift) or you are credited by the utilities for supplying them with green energy. You can also use this GTI created AC 230v output for your own use, so the utilities grid is a Virtual Battery.
In France you can only connect a 3KW system into the EDF.

Then we have a bigger systems that have a small battery, I call a small battery below 40KW and the main Inverter acts as the battery charger, GTI, and switches over automatically depending on the energy its getting can also switch on a standby generator etc.
Each manufacturer has compatibility issues so most systems will have just one manufacturer supplying just their equipment.

Then we have serious systems across the world that are commercially installed but then the whole concept of using renewable energy becomes not cost effective as the installation can be silly and very expensive money.

Okay, so what’s next, sorry it’s a minefield out there with loads of unscrupulous manufactures and very dodgy so called specialist commercial companies trying to sell you stuff that does not fit my criteria’s.

What is My Criteria’s, ?......... Is the product SIMPLE? Is it ROBUST? is it COST EFFECTIVE? can it BE REPAIRED?

SIMPLE, Some RE stuff is over complicated because the manufacturers make more money if its got loads of bells and whistles.

ROBUST, Is its lifespan long? Does it actually run at the manufacturers published outputs? and can it take harsh conditions, and is it easily repairable?

COST EFFECTIVE, do the financial figures add up.

REPAIR, Last year this was possibly not an issue, as most commercial manufacturers tended to do a swap out if the product was faulty. But to day, with shaky supply lines and specialist electronics that are superseded very quickly, products should be repairable. My Ethos, “ Make it once and keep it going for the sake of the Planet”. But sadly, most commercial folk see no money to be made by having stuff repairable.

If you have an electric car you want to charge during daylight hours, a pool to heat etc then you are looking at 30KW of PV. Remember that in the winter gloomy days you may only get 3KW out of a 30KW PV system.

What stuff do I recommend? Sorry I cannot publish the Bad, as some companies hate me!.

But here is a short list of manufacturers that are okay at present.

PV, loads of China stuff but LONGI and TRINA are okay and at a reasonable price, LG are very good. Other good manufactures have stopped making PV as their profit margins were reduced.

PV charge controllers for small systems to charge batteries. I recommend 'MIDNIGHT classic 200', made in the USA can handle up to 200vdc of PV and up to 70amps, its not a toy. 'Morningstar Tristar's' made in the USA, again very well made and very robust charge controllers and very good cost, and just run even in overload conditions.

GTI’s Sorry can’t recommend any that are in production at this present time. Older ones yes but the utilities insist that the it’s a new GTI machine with all the correct paper work chase. We use SMA Sunny boys, Toroid type GTI’s and all are second hand/used as they are very cheap and good quality.

Main Inverters that change 24vDC and 48vDC to 230vAC 50HZ & 60HZ pure sine wave output, just one that is consistent, and called VICTRON, and uses old toroid technology and is based in Holland, (sadly there stuff is made in INDIA but is inspected and tested in Holland). They only go up to about 4.5KW output each, but you can link them together to get up to a max of about 14KW, but they have a good range of machines. These Victron main inverters can also AC COUPLE.

Batteries, for normal domestic off grid use then I recommend above 800ah 48vDc, 1200ah/60KW is best. ROLLS or SURRETTE based in Canada on the US border, make a range lead acid just for Off Grid system’s etc, There is BATER in Poland who make Forklift OPZs lead acid, and Sonnenschein who make a range of OPZ’s however the latter have manufacturing plants, but may be just importing the basics and assembling, rather than controlling the original QC.

Okay, Over 20 years we have ended up designing and making all our own stuff to my criteria’s, and that makes us very independent, even published a few books to show others. And on most good RE Forums across this World where there are some real smart 'cookies'..

PV is from China now, but I have a crystal ball and saw the supply lines and the greed coming so got my stuff way ahead before Christmas 2021, I shared a full pallet load of 36off 400w PV panels by Trina, and just used a French Importer.

OUR MAIN INVERTER. The OzInverter is made here, and published a book on how to make a real Simple, Robust and very cost effective 6KW running all day, 15Kw for 20 minutes or so and take surges of up to 50KW. Importantly because of its design it can handle up to 11Kw of AC COUPLING and back charge the batteries. I note in a book review, “This is real, and shows best practice in making an Inverter”

We 3off of our own Solar Trackers that can have 3.2KW of PV each. Again Simple and Robust and again very cost effective. Been up and withstood hurricane wind conditions. Thats Another book.

Wind Turbines. 3 off 3.7m diameter to Hugh Piggotts design, all made here from raw materials, Another small book.

WE do AC coupling here big time, but design simple systems. Still writing that one.

At present doing the R&D on a modern version of a lead acid PLANTE battery. Each is 2v cell about 440ah to 500ah and weighs about 55kg, for 48vdc system we need 24off. As you use the PLANTE battery the amperage improves. Because it is a PLANTE design then Life expectancy is about 25 years. Each battery cost about 200 euro in materials to make. Yes, doing another book.

Solar PV systems, 9.6KW array, roof arrays and wall arrays. Another book.

And of course we are also writing our complete book on RE and Sustainability as after 21 years we are nearly finished with our 12 buildings and 10 buildings with separate electrical installation. But its a large book and going to be very costly to print. Somewhere between 400 to 600 pages, again loads and loads of colour photos and that wonderful empirical evidence again. Also will be a few stories from across the World from folk who do.

One day soon we will have an open weekend. Might even do some short week or weekend courses, and yes we have individual accommodation, and we have a solar PV heated SALT Swimming pool.

I am just, as the Mrs says, A boring mechanical engineer.

Beam me up Scotty, I will happily come back!

After an essential flyby of Calais winestore of course. That 1kWh output in any conditions really rang a bell with me.

Not feeling upset at all!

Oh thats good.

PLEASE Gus and others, Re read the post as i just ammended and corrected spelling mistakes.

Joeboy, it will rot your brain. lol.

ClockmanFRA wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:30 pm Joeboy, it will rot your brain. lol.

Aye, but....