Trials and Tribulations of Eco installs.

[NoraBatty]

Yes that sounds pretty nasty.
Forgive the bad pictures but i have no way to explain the layout without lots and lots of words. I know what i am looking at just not what the technical terms are.

I do watch urban plumbers occasionally. I do have a plan, i am just unable to articulate it properly as lack the correct terms.

Because of the buffer, the system is a direct return lay out.
Not only will this be worse for flow and balancing, it has caused excessive pipe runs which can be reduced.

This is currently the lay out of the ASHP and the primary pipework as it runs under the suspended floor.
I dont have exact measurements only guesstimates for the length of this.
The heat pump is outside by the conservatory. The 28mm primarys do a weird loop under the conservatory into the floor void. This is about 2metres of copper outside pipe. It then travels in plastic, 2metres across the kitchen and hallway before going under the lounge. The lounge is 4x4m so hypotenuse is 5metres. So thats roughly 9 metres so far.


It then exits the floor void and travels up the inside of the chimney alcove (not on the drawing) in the lounge 2.4m ceilings and into the first floor.


Then keeps going up, until it gets to the loft. First floor also 2.4m high ceilings.



Have a good laugh at my drawing ability it then travels across the loft, to the cylinder where the 3 port valve is and then either to the cyl, or the buffer.. this is again about 2metres of pipe.

So primary flow and return is 2+ 2.4 + 2.4 + 5 +2 +2=15.8 or 16metres. Very roughly.

From there the buffer tank then splits to the secondary pipework which is 22mm.
It travels down the same area to the first floor


Where it then snakes through the bedroom. And into the hallway. The radiators are in brown. The pipework obviously has the tertiary radiator pipes coming off of it.

It then disappears down into the ground floor hallway, where it transitions back under the floor void, and snakes off to feed the tertiary pipes for the radiators, again shown in brown.



So the heating loop comes from the heatpump, under the floor, up to the loft, through the buffer, down into the bedroom across the first floor, down into the floor void, around the ground floor of the house, then back up to the loft via the first floor, only to come all the way back down to the heatpump again.

It has to do this because of the bloomin buffer, although it again could be designed much better.

My plan is to remove the buffer and second pump.
Once they are removed, i will be able to change this to a reverse return for better flow and balancing, and upgrade the pipework

[Krill]

Not really reading this thread, but the larger the volume in the run from the HP to the house, the greater the volume that needs heating before the hot water get to an emitter.

This suggests that there is a trade off, a happy middle ground that is more effective. I recall a thread about low volume radiators that everyone said the manufacturer was wrong when they used this logic, but can't find it. That would have given some of the background...

OTOH the return should be larger in volume to reduce friction and other overhead losses.

[Stinsy]

Yes that sounds pretty nasty.
Forgive the bad pictures but i have no way to explain the layout without lots and lots of words. I know what i am looking at just not what the technical terms are.

I do watch urban plumbers occasionally. I do have a plan, i am just unable to articulate it properly as lack the correct terms.

Because of the buffer, the system is a direct return lay out.
Not only will this be worse for flow and balancing, it has caused excessive pipe runs which can be reduced.

This is currently the lay out of the ASHP and the primary pipework as it runs under the suspended floor.
I dont have exact measurements only guesstimates for the length of this.
The heat pump is outside by the conservatory. The 28mm primarys do a weird loop under the conservatory into the floor void. This is about 2metres of copper outside pipe. It then travels in plastic, 2metres across the kitchen and hallway before going under the lounge. The lounge is 4x4m so hypotenuse is 5metres. So thats roughly 9 metres so far.


It then exits the floor void and travels up the inside of the chimney alcove (not on the drawing) in the lounge 2.4m ceilings and into the first floor.


Then keeps going up, until it gets to the loft. First floor also 2.4m high ceilings.



Have a good laugh at my drawing ability it then travels across the loft, to the cylinder where the 3 port valve is and then either to the cyl, or the buffer.. this is again about 2metres of pipe.

So primary flow and return is 2+ 2.4 + 2.4 + 5 +2 +2=15.8 or 16metres. Very roughly.

From there the buffer tank then splits to the secondary pipework which is 22mm.
It travels down the same area to the first floor


Where it then snakes through the bedroom. And into the hallway. The radiators are in brown. The pipework obviously has the tertiary radiator pipes coming off of it.

It then disappears down into the ground floor hallway, where it transitions back under the floor void, and snakes off to feed the tertiary pipes for the radiators, again shown in brown.



So the heating loop comes from the heatpump, under the floor, up to the loft, through the buffer, down into the bedroom across the first floor, down into the floor void, around the ground floor of the house, then back up to the loft via the first floor, only to come all the way back down to the heatpump again.

It has to do this because of the bloomin buffer, although it again could be designed much better.

My plan is to remove the buffer and second pump.
Once they are removed, i will be able to change this to a reverse return, cutting out the secondary returns unneccessary trip to the loft, by teeing into the primary return under the floor void.

Alternatively i could have the secondary flow running in parallel with the primary pupework as it transitions through the house, and tee that off at each floor, with the returns teed directly into the primary return that way. This would cut the most pipework out, but the system would not be as balanced as a reverse return.

Before i commit to either, i plan to test both and see what works best. Either way the pipes i would have to cut out or put back to swap and change between the two ideas, have harsh 90 elbows on them, which i would be changing to nice radius bends. So it will be easy to cap off and test one, then the other.
And the plastic pipework would still need to be replaced, and would not factor into either plan in any way detrimentally.

If that all makes sense to anyone ither than me?!

I know I'm not on the ground so maybe there is a good reason. But why not run well-insulated 40mm plastic up from the HP into the attic and to the buffer without any fittings in between?

Obviously no-buffer is better but MCS basically requires one. And buffer closer to HP is better. But if you must have a buffer and that buffer must be as far away as physically possible...

[NoraBatty]

I know I'm not on the ground so maybe there is a good reason. But why not run well-insulated 40mm plastic up from the HP into the attic and to the buffer without any fittings in between?

Obviously no-buffer is better but MCS basically requires one. And buffer closer to HP is better. But if you must have a buffer and that buffer must be as far away as physically possible...

Theres no reason really other than it would be a bugger to pull through. Plastic isnt an option, and ive literally just heard of MLCP from Marcus and AGT. It does change things quite a bit.

The way the copper currently runs between floors both in primary and secondary, it is on display. I presume this was laziness of the plumbers not to chase the wall that has a perfectly adequate void vehind both sets of pipes.
This could be boxed in or chased into the wall, but is currently acting as an emitter in its own right into the house, hence why i have left it like that. Plastic wouldnt be suxh a good emitter, so could be insulated and hidden in the wall voids.

There is also no reason i couldnt shift the unit itself to the front of the house by the lounge wall, where the copper primary pipes then transition through the fabric into the loft. It would cut out 9 metres of primary piping under the floor.
In actual fact the unit may be better there, instead of where it is because it would then be open on all 3 sides, vs 1.5m away from a fence and gate on 2 sides.
I have an engine hoist and trolley that would make shifting it easier. The only difficult part would be coring the wall, but i can hire or pay someone to do that.

As for system volume, the midea handbook states the system will work with a minimum of 20litres.
The radiators easily exceed that, and with no zoning, there is no need at all for the buffer.
It was taken off last winter when the secondary pump seized, and i had no issues at all.
Leaving it in situ but diverting the piping with compressions, so that it can be reinstated if needed, is the plan.
If we ever did sell here, then it can be put back in to comply with MCS but i dont see the point.

Obviously moving the unit is a bit of a bigger task. But would be off set by easier pipe replacement.
There is nothing in the handover pack, planning, or electrical stuff that states where the unit actually is sited, that i can see, in order to stop the unit being moved. I would just need a concrete pad made out in the front garden. Which is easy enough.
I still have a quarter bag of ballast sat on the driveway from the battery shed base build.

[AGT]

Can I ask if you bought the house and the install was done for the previous owner?

If so remove what you want and alter what you want MCS won’t be checking on anything, you have no contract with MCS, local authority may get involved with the external unit regarding the silly boundary rules.

I think moving forward a specification for any works getting done would be advantageous, lets companies price the same for comparison and sets a standard of work person ship that was lacking in the original install.

[NoraBatty]

Can I ask if you bought the house and the install was done for the previous owner?
If so remove what you want and alter what you want MCS won’t be checking on anything, you have no contract with MCS, local authority may get involved with the external unit regarding the silly boundary rules.

I think moving forward a specification for any works getting done would be advantageous, lets companies price the same for comparison and sets a standard of work person ship that was lacking in the original install.

Exactly this. We moved into a bodged house.

If i did move the unit then it would comply with the 1m boundary rule anyway so that would not be an issue.

Work wise there will be no more external parties playing with the system once it is all signed off. It will be fettled with by me. And ive promised myself mates rates.

Only thing that will be done by others is the hybrid install for the batteries, and thats already in the works.

[AlBargey]

If pipe inserts increasing resistance is a consideration for standard dimension plastic pipe, use Hep20, their inserts are very thin wall stainless steel so minimal restriction, I prefer them because of this myself.

[NoraBatty]

Thanks Al, not used much Hep20 myself, but i think given i can bump up to bigger bore with the mlcp i may go with that instead.
I just need to look into hiring a press fit tool and suitable jaws to be able to do so.

[NoraBatty]

The solar remedials went well.
The solar team sent round to fix the install were not the same guys as fitted apparently.
This was also all taken off and reinstalled properly. Starting with the front.










They then added a 4th panel so that the system now reaches operating voltage.





The rear elevation needes proper scaffolding erected, so this was put on hold until that could be arranged.
Id like to say the front solar now worked.
But it didnt. Solar output was once again only coming from the rear panels, which this time of year, and in their direction, was yielding us about 100W of power a day.

However the front elevation flashings being installed correctly, have been put through their paces recently with high winds, torrential rain and snow.

No leaks at all in the house and humidity is now down from 70% daily inside, and 90% when it rains, to 40-50%.

Im glad this was indeed the issue. Because 3 sets of roofers we have had round to find the issue have all blamed the ridge tiles and the skews. Indeed the ridge tiles do need repointing, but i had a hunch the issue was the flashings.
You could see darker sarking boards around the areas they were installed.
We just saved £2-3K of roof work that would not have fixed the issue.

[NoraBatty]

The rear solar was worked on last week. And its hard to get real pictures of the work due to the location.








The flashings only on one side of the array, are still visible at the back here. The ones on the other side are covered fully by the slates.
I am not overly happy with this, as everything i read online states the slates should not have the flashings on show, the slatws being the weight that holds the flashings down.
Some of these look like the only thing holding the flashing down is a 1inch slither of slate.




Unfortunately after pointing this out to NICEIC, their technical team met, and decided it was in line with the minimum standard requirements, so that is how those 3 flashings will stay. They did find that cables were still loose and dangling down in contact with the slates, including MC4 connectors, so the roofers have since been back a further 2 times to tie these up, until NICEIC were finally happy.











The front solar, issue was finally fixed. They found that MC4s were damaged, and after replacement, the daily yield went from a pathetic 100W, to 2.1KW.
We will gladly take it. Thats 18 months of SE facing solar we have missed out on, but a nice future amount to look forward to.