Central heating

Air source, ground source and associated systems for heating homes
Oldgreybeard
Posts: 1873
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:42 pm
Location: North East Dorset

Re: Central heating

#41

Post by Oldgreybeard »

MrPablo wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 8:28 am Impressively low level of energy usage considering the heat will last you several days. A testament to the house construction!
Thanks! The house needs around 800W to 1,000W of heat when it's very cold, around -5°C outside, to keep the room temperature at around 21.5°C. 900W of heating is under 300W of electrical power into the heat pump, although it won't modulate down that low, plus we only usually run it overnight during the off-peak period. The heat pump draws about 1.5kW for a few minutes when it first fires up, then settles back to run at around 800W or so, cycling on and off periodically once it's up to temperature. I have seen it run all night at a steady 900W once, when it was very cold (around -4°C), but for most of the winter it seems to only come on once every two or three nights.

We could do with a smaller heat pump, really, but when I bought it 6kW was the smallest model I could find. Ideally one about half that power output would be about ideal, as it would be able to modulate down to a lower level than the one we have. A smaller heat pump would also make it easier to run the heating from the batteries, which could be useful in very cold weather.
25 off 250W Perlight solar panels, installed 2014, with a 6kW PowerOne inverter, about 6,000kWh/year generated
6 off Pylontech US3000C batteries, with a Sofar ME3000SP inverter
User avatar
Joeboy
Posts: 8148
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 4:22 pm
Location: Inverurie

Re: Central heating

#42

Post by Joeboy »

We are 16 degs outdoors this morning,a lovely day. House is sitting at 22.4degs so they'll be no WBS until the evening. Adjusting the SH charging times to knock another 10kWh off the overnight charge window.Hoping to get down to 50KWh and keep going through the Winter.

Watched a fully charged episode a couple of days ago on heatpumps. They are definitely getting there. Question for those in the know. Is the COP on the air con systems a few of you have recently fitted similar to a heatpump? Ignoring size factor for the moment
19.7kW PV SE, VI, HM, EN & DW
Ripple 7kW WT & Gen to date 19MWh
42kWh LFPO4 storage
95kWh Heater storage
12kWh 210ltr HWT.
73kWh HI5
Deep insulation, air leak ct'd home
Zoned GCH & Hive 2
WBSx2
Low energy bulbs
Veg patches & fruit trees
Moxi
Posts: 2293
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:46 pm

Re: Central heating

#43

Post by Moxi »

Another grey wet and very windy day here, we seem to have had only one decent day this week - seriously considering a micro wind turbine ! :lol:

Waiting for light levels to improve enough for the panels to latch and start generating - even a little is better than nothing.

Coldest wall in the cottage living room is sat at 19.5, lintel over the inglenook fireplace is still warm to the touch form having the WBS on yesterday for a few hours - our storage heater if you will I, think I calculated that the lintel alone was around 300kg of slate and then theres the side walls and the stone above it which must easily be several tonnes - certainly the bedroom directly above the living room was too hot for us last night despite the window being open 25mm and the raging gales outside!

Moxi
Oldgreybeard
Posts: 1873
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:42 pm
Location: North East Dorset

Re: Central heating

#44

Post by Oldgreybeard »

Joeboy wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:05 am Question for those in the know. Is the COP on the air con systems a few of you have recently fitted similar to a heatpump? Ignoring size factor for the moment
I think the aircon units are slightly more efficient than the air to water heat pumps, not sure by how much, though. Our air to water heat pump averages a true (as in measured - electrical energy in versus heat energy out) COP of about 3.3 to 3.4, although I did have to tweak the settings to achieve that. As delivered, the default settings gave a COP of around 2.5, so a fair bit lower. There was a chap on a now deceased building forum some years ago that had discovered how to make the best of an ASHP running UFH, and I pretty much copied what he did, turn the flow temperature down and get rid of the weather compensation feature. The latter was pointless for a system running UFH, as the weather compensation just got cancelled out by the thermostatic mixing valve on the UFH.
25 off 250W Perlight solar panels, installed 2014, with a 6kW PowerOne inverter, about 6,000kWh/year generated
6 off Pylontech US3000C batteries, with a Sofar ME3000SP inverter
User avatar
Joeboy
Posts: 8148
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 4:22 pm
Location: Inverurie

Re: Central heating

#45

Post by Joeboy »

Oldgreybeard wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:30 am
Joeboy wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:05 am Question for those in the know. Is the COP on the air con systems a few of you have recently fitted similar to a heatpump? Ignoring size factor for the moment
I think the aircon units are slightly more efficient than the air to water heat pumps, not sure by how much, though. Our air to water heat pump averages a true (as in measured - electrical energy in versus heat energy out) COP of about 3.3 to 3.4, although I did have to tweak the settings to achieve that. As delivered, the default settings gave a COP of around 2.5, so a fair bit lower. There was a chap on a now deceased building forum some years ago that had discovered how to make the best of an ASHP running UFH, and I pretty much copied what he did, turn the flow temperature down and get rid of the weather compensation feature. The latter was pointless for a system running UFH, as the weather compensation just got cancelled out by the thermostatic mixing valve on the UFH.
Thanks OGB, I have a vague plan to install an aircon unit next year if all the lads report back with favourable COP'S over Winter. Fintray most of all as we are only a few miles apart up here. Would be nice to kill four birds with.one stone. Air purification, heat, cooling and dehumidifier. If its available on a free multiplier then I'd be mad not to. Much SWMBO convincing required though.
19.7kW PV SE, VI, HM, EN & DW
Ripple 7kW WT & Gen to date 19MWh
42kWh LFPO4 storage
95kWh Heater storage
12kWh 210ltr HWT.
73kWh HI5
Deep insulation, air leak ct'd home
Zoned GCH & Hive 2
WBSx2
Low energy bulbs
Veg patches & fruit trees
marshman
Posts: 614
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:58 pm

Re: Central heating

#46

Post by marshman »

__
Last edited by marshman on Sun Jun 11, 2023 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
nowty
Posts: 5828
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 2:36 pm
Location: South Coast

Re: Central heating

#47

Post by nowty »

I have some limited anecdotal evidence here at Nowty Towers from using the A2A vs the GSHP now. At least at these mildish temps the A2A definitely wins on a number of points.

I get a COP on the GSHP of 2.5 or 3.5 depending on radiator temp, I know because of my testing when I commissioned it.
https://camelot-forum.co.uk/phpBB3/view ... t=15#p5264

I don't have similar hard data for the A2A, as its difficult to measure, but I can feel how comfortable the house is. Upstairs is 1 degree warmer than last year and our main living areas downstairs are 2 degrees warmer. I we had set the GSHP to those increased temps, the radiators run hotter and therefore lose efficiency.

And I can compare my leccy import to last year, last month (OCT) was 50% down but it was milder than the previous year so I did not do much storage heater boosting. This month its closer, but still looking at a reduction. Arguably though, there have been two triple glazed window improvements since last years period.

I still use the GSHP to heat the hot water and use it in the morning up to breakfast time as having all radiators on helps to heat extremities of the house or rooms where the door is closed like the bathroom and bedrooms. After breakfast I switch over to the A2A and they modulate much better than the GSHP which is only On or Off. When it gets proper cold, using it this way should help the outside ambient temp to increase before I switch over to A2A.

With regards to @marshman comment on drafts, I would have agreed with him until actually having it. Maybe its less of a problem here as we keep an above average house temp but the air currents are hardly noticeable and the indoor units are whisper quiet in operation. Its actually quite nice to walk in front of the warm air draft and the cat has found the spot on the floor were the draft hits.
18.7kW PV > 109MWh generated
Ripple 6.6kW Wind + 4.5kW PV > 26MWh generated
5 Other RE Coop's
105kWh EV storage
60kWh Home battery storage
40kWh Thermal storage
GSHP + A2A HP's
Rain water use > 510 m3
User avatar
Stinsy
Posts: 2885
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:09 pm

Re: Central heating

#48

Post by Stinsy »

nowty wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:51 pm I have some limited anecdotal evidence here at Nowty Towers from using the A2A vs the GSHP now. At least at these mildish temps the A2A definitely wins on a number of points.

I get a COP on the GSHP of 2.5 or 3.5 depending on radiator temp, I know because of my testing when I commissioned it.
https://camelot-forum.co.uk/phpBB3/view ... t=15#p5264

I don't have similar hard data for the A2A, as its difficult to measure, but I can feel how comfortable the house is. Upstairs is 1 degree warmer than last year and our main living areas downstairs are 2 degrees warmer. I we had set the GSHP to those increased temps, the radiators run hotter and therefore lose efficiency.

And I can compare my leccy import to last year, last month (OCT) was 50% down but it was milder than the previous year so I did not do much storage heater boosting. This month its closer, but still looking at a reduction. Arguably though, there have been two triple glazed window improvements since last years period.

I still use the GSHP to heat the hot water and use it in the morning up to breakfast time as having all radiators on helps to heat extremities of the house or rooms where the door is closed like the bathroom and bedrooms. After breakfast I switch over to the A2A and they modulate much better than the GSHP which is only On or Off. When it gets proper cold, using it this way should help the outside ambient temp to increase before I switch over to A2A.

With regards to @marshman comment on drafts, I would have agreed with him until actually having it. Maybe its less of a problem here as we keep an above average house temp but the air currents are hardly noticeable and the indoor units are whisper quiet in operation. Its actually quite nice to walk in front of the warm air draft and the cat has found the spot on the floor were the draft hits.
I'm guessing that the A2A vs GSHP will swap over as temperatures drop.

Currently your A2A is scavenging heat from double-digit outdoor temperatures while the GSHP is working with water that a few degrees.

At some point the A2A will be working with air that is sub-zero while the GSHP will be working with water that is still a few degrees...
12x 340W JA Solar panels (4.08kWp)
3x 380W JA Solar panels (1.14kWp)
5x 2.4kWh Pylontech batteries (12kWh)
LuxPower inverter/charger

(Artist formally known as ******, well it should be obvious enough to those for whom such things are important.)
Oldgreybeard
Posts: 1873
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:42 pm
Location: North East Dorset

Re: Central heating

#49

Post by Oldgreybeard »

Stinsy wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 1:49 pm I'm guessing that the A2A vs GSHP will swap over as temperatures drop.

Currently your A2A is scavenging heat from double-digit outdoor temperatures while the GSHP is working with water that a few degrees.

At some point the A2A will be working with air that is sub-zero while the GSHP will be working with water that is still a few degrees...
The air temperature doesn't make a big difference, does it?

Being a bear of simple brain my thinking is along these lines (and I may well be wrong):

Air at absolute zero contains no heat at all.

Air has a heat capacity of around 700J/kg.K (varies a little bit with temperature).

Air at 10°C (+283K) holds about 198.1kJ/kg.K

Air at -5°C (+268K) holds about 187.6kJ/kg.K

I make that a reduction in the available heat that could be extracted from the air of just 5.3% for an air temperature change from +10°C to -5°C, probably not worth worrying about in the overall scheme of things. This seems to be supported by the fact that ASHPs are very popular in some cold countries. I saw a lot of them when in Finland a few years ago, seemingly working well in sub-zero temperatures.
25 off 250W Perlight solar panels, installed 2014, with a 6kW PowerOne inverter, about 6,000kWh/year generated
6 off Pylontech US3000C batteries, with a Sofar ME3000SP inverter
User avatar
Stinsy
Posts: 2885
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:09 pm

Re: Central heating

#50

Post by Stinsy »

Oldgreybeard wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:14 pm
Stinsy wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 1:49 pm I'm guessing that the A2A vs GSHP will swap over as temperatures drop.

Currently your A2A is scavenging heat from double-digit outdoor temperatures while the GSHP is working with water that a few degrees.

At some point the A2A will be working with air that is sub-zero while the GSHP will be working with water that is still a few degrees...
The air temperature doesn't make a big difference, does it?

Being a bear of simple brain my thinking is along these lines (and I may well be wrong):

Air at absolute zero contains no heat at all.

Air has a heat capacity of around 700J/kg.K (varies a little bit with temperature).

Air at 10°C (+283K) holds about 198.1kJ/kg.K

Air at -5°C (+268K) holds about 187.6kJ/kg.K

I make that a reduction in the available heat that could be extracted from the air of just 5.3% for an air temperature change from +10°C to -5°C, probably not worth worrying about in the overall scheme of things. This seems to be supported by the fact that ASHPs are very popular in some cold countries. I saw a lot of them when in Finland a few years ago, seemingly working well in sub-zero temperatures.
My understanding is that it comes down to the efficiency of the heat exchanger. If the fluid has a critical point -20℃ then the bigger delta between air temperature and critical point the more efficient the heat exchanger will be. Basically as the outside temperature drops the less you're superheating the fluid.

The main benefit of a GSHP over an ASHP is that the ground (or water) remains at a more consistent temperature all year round so while air-source might have an advantage in mild conditions, when the air temp drops (and you really need the heating) the GS carries on at the same efficiency while the efficiency of AS reduces right when you need the heat the most.
12x 340W JA Solar panels (4.08kWp)
3x 380W JA Solar panels (1.14kWp)
5x 2.4kWh Pylontech batteries (12kWh)
LuxPower inverter/charger

(Artist formally known as ******, well it should be obvious enough to those for whom such things are important.)
Post Reply