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GarethC wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:25 pm Yes probably absolutely right. I just wondered if using a -single- storage mechanism for low cost, low carbon off peak energy that could provide for heat -and- electrical load (very big battery) -might- be better than separate storage mechanisms for heat and leccy (battery + hot water cylinder + potentially storage heaters). Especially as non-phase change thermal storage has quite low energy density (iirc) and high standing losses.

I think the conclusion is almost certainly not unless perhaps you have a heat pump to make far better thermal use of the electricity.

Although I'm not sure I entirely agree using time shifted off-peak electricity for direct electric is that bonkers. Currently our overnight (in Scotland) electricity is particularly low carbon and increasingly, given grid constraints, curtailed. Potentially better to use it than lose it perhaps, but would need further analysis.

Just realised there is Gareth C & Gareth J - I thought you were arguing with yourself

GarethC wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:54 pm I think have!

It's not so different from using storage heaters though, is it? And while I think many on here have had a lot of success buying second hand ones, am I right that not many have shelled out for new ones? I -still- don't understand why they cost so much...

I bought a new SH a few years back. A very frustrating process it was too. Documented on here if you’re interested.

1) It was eyewateringly expensive.

2) It had a whole load of “smart” features that in reality turned out to be very dimwitted indeed. Whoever programmed these “smart” features is clearly an imbecile. I resorted to rewiring the SH to bypass all the stupid “smart” systems. I’ve since found out that “lobotomising” your SH is standard practice.

However even a stupidly-expensive brand new SH is still WAY cheaper than batteries. Eg an £800 brand new SH will store over 15kWh of heat. Whereas you’d need a £100 resistive heater and over £5k worth of batteries to achieve the same.

Just throwing this out as a temporary (toe-in-the-water) starter, but I think several of us have found an A2A unit (air con heat pump) a good way to supplement a FF boiler, or in Adokforme's case go further and ditch the boiler.

So sticking with the current wet system (for now), add the A2A unit, and maybe a smaller battery that can be expanded later, and you have the building blocks of the all leccy system.

That way you have the low carbon leccy, especially at night, cheap rate leccy for a contribution to space heating during the night, maybe that small batt to extend the A2A further through the day. And if PV, then A2A heating through the day in the shoulder months, when heating is needed, but minimal.

Even the A2A unit won't be a waste of money (lost investment) if the house goes to a full heatpump, as it can help in emergencies, and also add cooling in a key room, for those growing days of extreme heat we seem to be getting.

Gareth J wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:02 pm Using batteries to store energy you want to use for heating is bonkers. Economically and environmentally. Especially resistive heating with electricity you've bought.

What hasn't been said yet (I think) is that for most ordinary mortals electricity is never less than gas per kWhr. My current offer is 17p / kWhr import during the flux time (and that's just 3 hours, so not enough to run a house for a day) whereas gas is only 7p/kWhr at any time.
Even with the inefficiencies of gas - the calories of which mostly leak into my house - it will never be worth transferring to plain resistive heating.
A heat pump with a factor of 3 changes the balance a lot but only if if you can import enough during the cheap period. Get an electric car and you get dirt-cheap electrons (presumably subsidised by the rest of us) so you can then go to storage heaters and other stuff.
Just my understanding of things as they are at the moment...

AE-NMidlands wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:41 pm

Gareth J wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:02 pm Using batteries to store energy you want to use for heating is bonkers. Economically and environmentally. Especially resistive heating with electricity you've bought.

What hasn't been said yet (I think) is that for most ordinary mortals electricity is never less than gas per kWhr. My current offer is 17p / kWhr import during the flux time (and that's just 3 hours, so not enough to run a house for a day) whereas gas is only 7p/kWhr at any time.
Even with the inefficiencies of gas - the calories of which mostly leak into my house - it will never be worth transferring to plain resistive heating.
A heat pump with a factor of 3 changes the balance a lot but only if if you can import enough during the cheap period. Get an electric car and you get dirt-cheap electrons (presumably subsidised by the rest of us) so you can then go to storage heaters and other stuff.
Just my understanding of things as they are at the moment...

I pay 7.5p/kWh for electric as to most on here (I thought!). While I try to run that electric through my A2A for spaceheating but I do use significant amounts of resistive electric: in the cheap period, on days when the sun shines, and when Octopus give me additional cheap slots.

Stinsy wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:03 pm ...
I pay 7.5p/kWh for electric as to most on here (I thought!)...

I think thats the EV tariff? Whilst most on here may have an EV (?), not all of us have managed yet: I do intend to get one, as my diesel car represents my last tie to the ff companies, but the combination of cost, capacity for work (need to transport 3m lengths frequently), and the need to tow a livestock trailer seems to limit the options in my case.

If anyone can suggest something cheap and electric that can tow a trailer please let me know.

Edited to correct my "quotes" - but not before your reply was posted AE-NMidlands, sorry.

Marcus wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:18 pm

Stinsy wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:03 pm

[b wrote:AE-NMidlands post_id=39740 time=1700242913 user_id=70]
...
I pay 7.5p/kWh for electric as to most on here (I thought!)...[/b]

I think thats the EV tariff? Whilst most on here may have an EV (?), not all of us have managed yet: I do intend to get one, as my diesel car represents my last tie to the ff companies, but the combination of cost, capacity for work (need to transport 3m lengths frequently), and the need to tow a livestock trailer seems to limit the options in my case.
If anyone can suggest something cheap and electric that can tow a trailer please let me know.

Wasn't my quote... I was eating tea, or I would have said sooner that I'm not - and I suspect that most of us probably aren't - on an EV tarrif yet!

While the take-up of EVs might need encouraging (like pv and the feed-in tarrifs) I'm not convinced that it is right that people with one get all their power so much cheaper than those of us who either use public transport because they are in a city and don't need a car, or who are so poor that they just can't afford one at all, or who (like me) have an ICE vehicle which isn't life-expired, doesn't get used much but does what they want and probably won't get replaced at all.

Marcus wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:18 pm

Stinsy wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:03 pm ...
I pay 7.5p/kWh for electric as to most on here (I thought!)...

I think thats the EV tariff? Whilst most on here may have an EV (?), not all of us have managed yet: I do intend to get one, as my diesel car represents my last tie to the ff companies, but the combination of cost, capacity for work (need to transport 3m lengths frequently), and the need to tow a livestock trailer seems to limit the options in my case.

If anyone can suggest something cheap and electric that can tow a trailer please let me know.

"If anyone can suggest something cheap and electric that can tow a trailer please let me know."

Hmm, two out of three, perhaps?

Munro

yes, it's the 3rd one that's the killer at £50,000 + vat!

Tbh that's not a bad price for the spec, but i don't need something that big very often (a small livestock trailer would generally suffice), nor do i need 186miles range - 60miles, maybe 100 to cover real world and battery aging would do.