camelot-forum.co.uk

Anyone else heard anything about this potential change ?



Moxi

I sure hope it is included. But know nothing. But from comments (past years) on the MSE site, some folk have been writing to MP's asking why A2A isn't incuded, and explaining that any energy consumption for A/C, would be much smaller than that used for heating, especially if you have PV, which works perfectly with A/C (demand v's generation). [Edit - Apologies, just watched the vid, and it discusses the issue of A2A cooling and PV.]

Also seen a vid of a presentation at an Everything Electric show about low carbon heating, and one of our own, steps up to the mic at the question stage, to give excellent feedback on A2A benefits.

Edit - Here is the press release.

“heating, and one of our own, steps up to the mic at the question stage, to give excellent”

Do you have a link you could share please mart?

I’m hoping that this does happen in spring as it would be a massive boost to installations and remove some housing stock type blockages. For many it could also be the intermediate stepping stone to a wet system.

Moxi

It would also be of interest to those few, like me, that have a gas-fired warm air heating system and don't want the upheaval of having to have radiators retro-fitted.

I'll check if he's shy, or happy to post the link.

A2A can also augment a A2W where pipe or rad sizes aren't quite enough!

Eg you could pay thousands and thousands to upgrade rads and pipes to allow them to transfer/emit 7kW at 35℃. Or you could fit a 5kW A2W use the existing rads/pipework (maybe with small upgrades here and there) and fit a 2.5kW A2A HP.

Or one could fit a A2A if you have small bore pipes and keep the gas for those few days a yr.

Ken wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 8:43 am Or one could fit a A2A if you have small bore pipes and keep the gas for those few days a yr.

100%. A relatively cheap hybrid solution, especially if you have batts to time shift cheap rate for daytime space heating. But regardless, PV and an A2A will reduce or eliminate GCH during the shoulder months in the Spring/Autumn.

My plan was to use GCH as a top up for extreme's, as we have microbore. But the A2A units work better than expected, and even if I have to buy some day rate leccy, it probably works out similar to gas price after the COP.

One tiny caveat I have regarding the news is that it states that MCS standards have to be met. That sounds fine at first, but what if the support/subsidy* is conditional on the install being able to cope, like the ASHP rules. That's where I fell down, and got an ASHP quote of over £13k (~£6.5k after subsidy), despite having a low gas consumption, as my EPC and house description, suggested it would be a tough job. [1930's semi with CWI, but the area is classed as solid brick walls, perhaps as the cavities are small (~50mm), and my CWI isn't confirmed on the EPC.]

So we could have the same situation, where a system will work, but the MCS regs suggest it won't, so support isn't granted? Or perhaps an A2A is seen as just a way to support heating, and reduce the CO2(e) element, so regs are looser. I'm purely speculating, but hoping for good news in the Spring.

Edit, forgot the * - No idea what the support will be, perhaps just PP changes, but given the substantial £7.5k for wet systems, it would be nice if A2A got some decent support, but even VAT free would help.

Moxi wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 12:16 pm “heating, and one of our own, steps up to the mic at the question stage, to give excellent”

Do you have a link you could share please mart?

I’m hoping that this does happen in spring as it would be a massive boost to installations and remove some housing stock type blockages. For many it could also be the intermediate stepping stone to a wet system.

Moxi

Happy to post, but neither of us can (yet) find the link.

From memory, at the end of the talk about heatpumps (wet systems), they offer to take questions, and he's out of his seat and at the mic like a rat up a drainpipe.

Q. How about considering the benefits of A2A units, as these can help significantly.

A. The panel discuss, are open and supportive of A2A units, but raise the issue that the Gov seem concerned about additional energy consumption for A/C.

Instant response/retort pointing out that his recorded energy consumed for space heating v's A/C is 10:1.

Dave Borlace (hosting the panel), is pleased with the info and thanks the contribution.

Found the link but it's now locked, I think you have to be a patreon to see it. Sorry.

Mart wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 9:28 am

Ken wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 8:43 am Or one could fit a A2A if you have small bore pipes and keep the gas for those few days a yr.

100%. A relatively cheap hybrid solution, especially if you have batts to time shift cheap rate for daytime space heating. But regardless, PV and an A2A will reduce or eliminate GCH during the shoulder months in the Spring/Autumn.

My plan was to use GCH as a top up for extreme's, as we have microbore. But the A2A units work better than expected, and even if I have to buy some day rate leccy, it probably works out similar to gas price after the COP.

One tiny caveat I have regarding the news is that it states that MCS standards have to be met. That sounds fine at first, but what if the support/subsidy* is conditional on the install being able to cope, like the ASHP rules. That's where I fell down, and got an ASHP quote of over £13k (~£6.5k after subsidy), despite having a low gas consumption, as my EPC and house description, suggested it would be a tough job. [1930's semi with CWI, but the area is classed as solid brick walls, perhaps as the cavities are small (~50mm), and my CWI isn't confirmed on the EPC.]

So we could have the same situation, where a system will work, but the MCS regs suggest it won't, so support isn't granted? Or perhaps an A2A is seen as just a way to support heating, and reduce the CO2(e) element, so regs are looser. I'm purely speculating, but hoping for good news in the Spring.

As you lot probably already know: I have a single A2A in my 5-bed house. The original plan was, as you describe, to use the A2A in the shoulder months and top up with GCH when it is really cold. However, I haven't used the GCH for 3 winters now. I top up the A2A with resistive electric on cheap rate.

All going well I'll get rid of the gas boiler this year. I'll on a tank and resistive elements for DHW and I'm thinking about plumbing in a Willis heater to the existing wet system.

In future I might fit a small (maybe 4-6kW) HP to the cylinder and rads. However the cost is very difficult to justify. Currently I use about 75kWh a month of gas for DHW. I'm going to assume cylinder losses and boiler inefficiency is a wash so that'd cost me £5.25 a month on cheap rate electric so with a CoP of 3 a HP would save me £3.50 a month (£42 a year). I have resistive heaters in my living room and kitchen. I've only been monitoring how much they use for a few weeks. However January to-date has been really cold I've put 125kWh through the resistive heaters in the last week. I imagine that I put 250kWh a month through the resistive heaters for 3 months of the year. This costs £17.50 a month which is £52.50 a year. I could therefore save £39.38 a year a CoP of 4.

Therefore by my calculations a HP would save me c. £80 a year. Which is a very long payoff if the thing itself costs £2k not including installation costs.

I don't know, maybe I've added it up wrong...