Ammonia beware!

[openspaceman]

Yes nearly all hydrogen, methanol and ether are currently made from natural gas but the latter two can be made from plants, as most ethanol is currently.

It will need vast areas and because of the complexity of harvesting, processing and transport compared with pumping oil or digging coal out of the ground is likely going to be an order of magnitude more expensive but then fossil fuels have been too cheap because they did not factor in their external costs.

[dan_b]

Hence Dale Vince and his Ecotricity Gas from Grass idea.

[dan_b]

You're talking to a biochemist here and someone who has worked in the pharmaceutical industry for over 20 years!
Water toxicity is a real thing - it was the cause of death of a marathon runner at the London Marathon a few years ago - they were so obsessed with "hydration" that they literally drank themselves to death with water.

A friend of mine from an old car forum I used to be a member of got into making home made diesel and he handled methanol at home for something like 5 years. During that time he got a diagnosis of motor neurone disease and died. Can't prove they were related but the constant exposure to a neurotoxin does seem more than coincidental.

The LD50 of paracetamol may well be 155g, but you can permanently destroy your liver, requiring a liver organ transplant, with a dose less than a 10th of that.

Methanol toxicity is a big deal. Yes the main exposure risk is from drinking it directly - but it is still possible to get neurotoxic exposure through vapour inhalation, and long-term extensive skin contact.

Not saying it's not toxic, but it does need to be put into context, and it is well worth remembering that all of us produce and breathe out methanol all the time (albeit in small amounts).

Everything is toxic, nothing is absolutely safe, it's just a question of where we choose to draw lines when classifying substances. Lots of everyday household substances are far more toxic than methanol, either by ingestion, inhalation or skin contact. Just means we need to be aware of the risks, not start banning everything that might possibly be a hazard. Being aware of safe handling measures is sensible for anything, but these do need to be reasonable and proportionate to the real risk.

I remember going through the process at work, many years ago, when Material Safety Data Sheets became mandatory, and we had hordes of people spending time on classifying thousands of substances we used at work and making sure every one of them had an MSDS. It was a spoof, but we even had an MSDS for the universal solvent, Dihydrogen Oxide. FWIW, the LD50 (the median lethal dose that will kill 50% of a sample population with a body mass of 80kg) of Dihydrogen Oxide is about 7.2 litres.

Perhaps worth listing a few LD50s (assumed body mass 80kg) to try and get a feel for relative toxicity:

Water 7200g
Petrol 1125g
Vitamin C 952g
Glyphosate 843g
Ethanol 565g
Sodium Chloride 240g
Paracetemol 155g
Methanol 65g
Ibuprofen 51g
Ammonia 28g
Aspirin 16g
Caffeine 15g
Vitamin D3 3g

[Oldgreybeard]

I'm also a scientist (or was before I retired). My place of work was in Wiltshire, you can probably guess where.

As I wrote, "I'm not saying it's not toxic". Thought that was pretty clear, TBH. I get the water toxicity, and is specifically why I included it in that list, as I wanted to try to make the point that everything is toxic to some degree, even the universal solvent.

Because of the nature of the place I worked there was constant criticism about toxic substances being worked on, almost all of it badly misinformed, but allowed to flourish as the policy back then was to say nothing and answer no questions. I got a bit fed up with the level of uninformed bad press that was levied at us, professionally and personally (like others, I had damage to my house and protests outside it from time to time).

One conservation project at my last place of work involved protecting and planting new junipers (google juniper and the name of that place and there will be loads of hits). Interestingly, we had to treat the berries that were collected as part of the replanting programme as a toxic substance (under our rules), just because of the thujone in them. Mind you, as far as the risk to gin drinkers goes I suspect the toxicity of the quinine in the tonic might be more harmful . . .

[CrofterMannie]

As the article on ammonia mentions near the end, there are already orders for methanol powered ships (none for ammonia).

Equinor has contracts to modify 2 or 3 offshore supply vessels to run on ammonia. I'm not sure when they are due to be operational, last I heard was 2024.

[Ken]

So its alright to ship coal,oil,gas,nuclear all round the world but not hydrogen or ammonia- get real. Better stop going outside with all that pollution,particulates etc and the nuclear waste that could obliterate mankind and we are going to create more. I would have the ammonia any day.

[dan_b]

Cool.
They say eating liver is good for you because of the high iron content, low fat and high protein in general. Just make sure it's not a polar bear's liver. It'll kill you due to vitamin A poisoning!

I think stupidity should come with a hazard warning label. Seems to be responsible for most problems in the world.

I'm also a scientist (or was before I retired). My place of work was in Wiltshire, you can probably guess where.

As I wrote, "I'm not saying it's not toxic". Thought that was pretty clear, TBH. I get the water toxicity, and is specifically why I included it in that list, as I wanted to try to make the point that everything is toxic to some degree, even the universal solvent.

Because of the nature of the place I worked there was constant criticism about toxic substances being worked on, almost all of it badly misinformed, but allowed to flourish as the policy back then was to say nothing and answer no questions. I got a bit fed up with the level of uninformed bad press that was levied at us, professionally and personally (like others, I had damage to my house and protests outside it from time to time).

One conservation project at my last place of work involved protecting and planting new junipers (google juniper and the name of that place and there will be loads of hits). Interestingly, we had to treat the berries that were collected as part of the replanting programme as a toxic substance (under our rules), just because of the thujone in them. Mind you, as far as the risk to gin drinkers goes I suspect the toxicity of the quinine in the tonic might be more harmful . . .