Despatches "Dirty secrets of american food"

[Mr Gus]

Ours is a "great fen project" there is no chance of stopping it, it utilises an old farming family trust land for fund raising & flooding, doubt they considered their land being used like that

[Bugtownboy]

Mmmm, EA still control the pumping, there was major flooding on at least two occasions this winter - Muchelney was cut off for several days.

The main road across the levels A361 was closed for several days.

Admittedly it wasn’t as bad as, for example, Winter 2013-14, but there has been extensive dredging to improve flow and capacity on the major rivers/drains. There’s also been less rainfall.

Also think there’s been a programme of clearing the rhynes.

The levels will always flood - that’s their job.

Admittedly, the water table has effectively been raised, particularly on RSPB/Natural England land/reserves to provide habitat for, in particular, birds.

[renewablejohn]

Mmmm, EA still control the pumping, there was major flooding on at least two occasions this winter - Muchelney was cut off for several days.

The main road across the levels A361 was closed for several days.

Admittedly it wasn’t as bad as, for example, Winter 2013-14, but there has been extensive dredging to improve flow and capacity on the major rivers/drains. There’s also been less rainfall.

Also think there’s been a programme of clearing the rhynes.

The levels will always flood - that’s their job.

Admittedly, the water table has effectively been raised, particularly on RSPB/Natural England land/reserves to provide habitat for, in particular, birds.

Cannot blame the farmers or the drainage boards if it floods due to the idiots at RSPB and Natural England keeping the water table levels raised. They had been warned it was the cause of flooding giving decades of evidence of higher rainfall levels not producing floods due to the levels being kept low and the ground acting as a sponge. Its not rocket science to determine if the land ia already waterlogged it cannot act as a sponge.

[AE-NMidlands]

This is our current dilemma. We have been brought up (since WW2) to think that agricultural production is paramount. I agree we need to produce as much food as we can, but not to the exclusion of all else.

The thing about the Great Fen is that ever since it was drained the peat soil has been oxidising and/or simply blowing away. The farmers recognise that it is now virtually exhausted, as normal ploughing can be seen bringing up sterile subsoil, and I don't think there is the time or money available to try to convert the mix back into topsoil.
Hence the (once-) rich agricultural land now being sold to wildlife trusts at a knock-down price, and also available for a massive carbon sequestration job by simply re-wetting this burnt-out land.
I suspect that similar principles apply to lots of other areas of the UK. I am currently reading Fen, Bog and Swamp, a short history of peatland destruction and its role in the climate crisis by Annie Proulx. https://cheslive.koha-ptfs.co.uk/cgi-bi ... esc=proulx

I also agree that we eat far more meat now than is really needed, but I am concerned that the militant vegans have jumped on this bandwagon to try to get any kind of animal farming eliminated. Our uplands need a certain amount of the right sort of grazing and browsing and mixed lowland farms are bound to be more sustainable/self-sufficient. It's mad that there are (or were) colossal stacks of straw mouldering in Lincolnshire (or going for biomass elec generation) and lorries shifting some of it to the west where animals need it. Livestock bedded on it on mixed farms in the E of England could use it directly and reduce the need for transport and for fossil fuel fertiliser.

[renewablejohn]

This is our current dilemma. We have been brought up (since WW2) to think that agricultural production is paramount. I agree we need to produce as much food as we can, but not to the exclusion of all else.

The thing about the Great Fen is that ever since it was drained the peat soil has been oxidising and/or simply blowing away. The farmers recognise that it is now virtually exhausted, as normal ploughing can be seen bringing up sterile subsoil, and I don't think there is the time or money available to try to convert the mix back into topsoil.
Hence the (once-) rich agricultural land now being sold to wildlife trusts at a knock-down price, and also available for a massive carbon sequestration job by simply re-wetting this burnt-out land.
I suspect that similar principles apply to lots of other areas of the UK. I am currently reading Fen, Bog and Swamp, a short history of peatland destruction and its role in the climate crisis by Annie Proulx. https://cheslive.koha-ptfs.co.uk/cgi-bi ... esc=proulx

I also agree that we eat far more meat now than is really needed, but I am concerned that the militant vegans have jumped on this bandwagon to try to get any kind of animal farming eliminated. Our uplands need a certain amount of the right sort of grazing and browsing and mixed lowland farms are bound to be more sustainable/self-sufficient. It's mad that there are (or were) colossal stacks of straw mouldering in Lincolnshire (or going for biomass elec generation) and lorries shifting some of it to the west where animals need it. Livestock bedded on it on mixed farms in the E of England could use it directly and reduce the need for transport and for fossil fuel fertiliser.

Dont know who you have been speaking to but the fens are certainly not exhausted and are quite easily rejuvenated with simple green manure techniques. Its not being sold to wildlife trusts at knockdown prices its just that farmers cannot compete on a level playing field as food prices are held artificially low and the do gooders believe their saving the planet by supporting wildlife trusts when on many occasions there actually destroying the wildlife there trying to save by their ignorance.

[AE-NMidlands]

I've been there and seen these https://www.greatfen.org.uk/about-great ... -fen-posts - originally level with the soil surface.

The base of the post was embedded in the clay layer that underlies the peat and the top of the post was cut off level with the soil surface. At this time the post was about half a mile from the edge of the Mere and there was about 22 feet of peat from the soil surface down to the clay layer.

I also recognise that our own veg garden soil, even though we give it compost made from garden arisings and also bought-in veg stuff like orange peel and cardboard, is shrinking too.
I've also seen lots of ploughed fields with yellow or white subsoil turned up by ploughing, which might be because bigger tractors are ploughing deeper, or could be because the topsoil is shrinking (oxidising away.)

I agree that farmers don't get a fair price for their produce, but that is beside the point. There is lots of evidence that topsoil is a dwindling/disappearing asset - if you are prepared to see it.

[Joeboy]

I've been there and seen these https://www.greatfen.org.uk/about-great ... -fen-posts - originally level with the soil surface.

The base of the post was embedded in the clay layer that underlies the peat and the top of the post was cut off level with the soil surface. At this time the post was about half a mile from the edge of the Mere and there was about 22 feet of peat from the soil surface down to the clay layer.

I also recognise that our own veg garden soil, even though we give it compost made from garden arisings and also bought-in veg stuff like orange peel and cardboard, is shrinking too.
I've also seen lots of ploughed fields with yellow or white subsoil turned up by ploughing, which might be because bigger tractors are ploughing deeper, or could be because the topsoil is shrinking (oxidising away.)

I agree that farmers don't get a fair price for their produce, but that is beside the point. There is lots of evidence that topsoil is a dwindling/disappearing asset - if you are prepared to see it.

We use about 1.5 cubic mtrs of homemade compost on our various veg patches and fruit trees each year. Made up of all grass clippings, shredded leaves, all kitchen waste that is veg based and woodfire ash which goes straight onto beds. Even at this quite large volume for very small scale it is incredibly slow to see the level increasing in the year to year cycle and our gardens don't suffer from wind erosion. On a commercial scale I have no idea how they'd do it.

[Mr Gus]

DO NOT drive your car the last mile to visit the sinking post, it will wreck your car.

The roads here have always been dire, we tookizxy there as a kid & nearby as to & fro regional driving, the road there is a great example of completely jiggered road slippage & sinkage regionally.

Not that there is much to look at mind.

If you visit nearby rspca block fen site (closed for viewing since covid) likely that road will be enough for you.
(block fen is by "london" skydiving centre) & fir thos unfamiliar thats a bad enough road for most (passing places) ..we took some kit out there last week & whilst not the worst the road was useable but needed negotiating around not through.

Agreed, land rejuvenation needs a decent regime of natural composting to bring back decent soil levels of healthy biome.

[renewablejohn]

I've been there and seen these https://www.greatfen.org.uk/about-great ... -fen-posts - originally level with the soil surface.

The base of the post was embedded in the clay layer that underlies the peat and the top of the post was cut off level with the soil surface. At this time the post was about half a mile from the edge of the Mere and there was about 22 feet of peat from the soil surface down to the clay layer.

I also recognise that our own veg garden soil, even though we give it compost made from garden arisings and also bought-in veg stuff like orange peel and cardboard, is shrinking too.
I've also seen lots of ploughed fields with yellow or white subsoil turned up by ploughing, which might be because bigger tractors are ploughing deeper, or could be because the topsoil is shrinking (oxidising away.)

I agree that farmers don't get a fair price for their produce, but that is beside the point. There is lots of evidence that topsoil is a dwindling/disappearing asset - if you are prepared to see it.

It does make me laugh these sort of articles having been brought up in Lincolnshire. What people fail to understand is peat is a floating structure so movement of the underlying water table has a direct effect on the distance from the underlying clay bed. Classic example is the floating M180 as you head from the river trent towards Doncaster.
As for my own veg garden experience I originally started off with scaffold board deep beds filled level after year 1 topped up to be level again now after 10 years of no dig and no standing on the beds the level is 1-2 inches above the scaffold boards with a 4 year crop rotation and only major addition is 2 inch hay mulch applied for growing no dig potatoes.

[renewablejohn]

I guess one of the things about agriculture on this scale is there are hazards that don't affect small operations.
I have 10 cattle in a shed and have never considered the possibility of the shed exploding, it's naturally ventilated so why would it?

A rough calculation shows that 20k cows will produce about 9000m3 of methane a day. The LEL (lower explosive limit) of methane is 5% so that could result in a 180,000m3 explosive mix of gas having to be removed every day. I don't suppose a 50 acre shed can be naturally ventilated effectively enough so if the ventilation system isn't up to it then it becomes a giant bomb.

The fire department report is now out and the fire had absolutely nothing to do with methane and everything to do with a slurry cleaning machine which caught fire.