Plug-in solar devices.

[chris_n]

Actually ..... taking it a step further, how about AC side battery systems with a battery/inverter to home AC output of 800W or less, that's 14.4kWh over 18hrs (with 6hrs cheap rate to charge at ~2.5kW) .... hmmmm?

That is exactly what the Ecoflow system that started this thread viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2272 was meant to do. It was quickly withdrawn from sale in UK but is still available in Europe. It is a bit clunky and you do (did?) need to use their batteries, 600W or 800W micro inverter depending on which country you are in. The local B&Q type store has them.

[Saladin]

I think the regs that would allow plug in solar would, by definition, apply to a battery system. They're all "generating plant" so far as the regs are concerned.

Depends on what you are plugging into. The regs apply only to "national grid connected installations".

Two alternative solutions would be nationalise the national grid or decentralise and build yer own.
I huesta wonder why the things we use everyday aren't thought in schools...energy production, water harvesting, collectivism, food production, shelter making, social architure, plasma.
It seems state education isn't interested in advocating self-reliance...odd..artificial demand maybe...

Seems normal we pay for water now...oxygen will be next I suppose...

You can add aunty islanding to any device by using a contactor with the coil powered by the grid. Grids goes down, coil de-energises, contactor opens, aux genset isolated You can build it for less than £10. It's easy peasy...that excuse is as valid as the "grid needs upgrading"...decentralised power can be throttled and or used locally. I know this because I've been implementing it for over a decade...but then the grid's been doing it ever since they synchronised a second generator to the network....foxes guarding the henhouse I'm afraid...

[Mart]

Actually ..... taking it a step further, how about AC side battery systems with a battery/inverter to home AC output of 800W or less, that's 14.4kWh over 18hrs (with 6hrs cheap rate to charge at ~2.5kW) .... hmmmm?

That is exactly what the Ecoflow system that started this thread viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2272 was meant to do. It was quickly withdrawn from sale in UK but is still available in Europe. It is a bit clunky and you do (did?) need to use their batteries, 600W or 800W micro inverter depending on which country you are in. The local B&Q type store has them.

Spot on, that was part of my ponderings. Which out loud were:-

Step 1 - If you can have 800W (AC) of PV going into a socket, then
Step 2 - Does it matter if it goes via a battery, so long as the 800W limit is maintained, then
Step 3 - Can you cut out the PV part, and jump to an AC grid charged battery, that discharges back to the house circuit at 800W.

I know very little about electrickery, and all of the potential ramifications, but I'm guessing that those 3 scenarios are pretty much the same as regards DNO concerns/issues? So could open the door to some cheap and easy PV, and maybe some simplified storage, at a not unreasonable amount of power.

So much potential, for so many, hope it doesn't take a couple of years to decide/approve.

[Stinsy]

I think the regs that would allow plug in solar would, by definition, apply to a battery system. They're all "generating plant" so far as the regs are concerned.

Depends on what you are plugging into. The regs apply only to "national grid connected installations".

Not true. (I didn't read the rest).

[Saladin]

Step 1 - If you can have 800W (AC) of PV going into a socket, then

You'd be best to hardwire it. You'll melt a 13Amp eventually.

Step 2 - Does it matter if it goes via a battery, so long as the 800W limit is maintained, then

Matter to whom?
The electrons...not really

Step 3 - Can you cut out the PV part, and jump to an AC grid charged battery, that discharges back to the house circuit at 800W.

You can do it seemlessly while maintaining proportional or entire solar input. Anything called a hybrid inverter can do this.

The main barrier to entry is conceptual criminality for donating power to your fellow humans by the owners and orchestrators of the national grid without their oversight, accountabliilty and mandated constraints.
The technical difficulty is minor to overcome.

If you are registered as a micro-generator with a grid compliant battery then you can export from that battery anything you want from any charger you have.

I know very little about electrickery, and all of the potential ramifications, but I'm guessing that those 3 scenarios are pretty much the same as regards DNO concerns/issues? So could open the door to some cheap and easy PV, and maybe some simplified storage, at a not unreasonable amount of power.

It's a lot like plumbing. There's two issues.
One is technical. Can you do it? Yes.
The other is societal.Will the DNO let you? Depends.

I mostly only deal with the technical end of things.

So much potential, for so many, hope it doesn't take a couple of years to decide/approve.

Power to the people, one could say.
I approve. On you go.

If you start with an off-grid system an use everything you produce then no problem. Pick a room in the house and make it 24V or whatever.
The main "issue" arises when you reverse feed a meter. You can avoid this by
Having more load than solar.
Using an off-grid setup with a mains powered battery charger to buffer shortfall.
An AC coupled system with diversion load control.
An AC coupled system set to "import only"

[Mart]

Matter to whom?
The electrons...not really

Matter to the DNO, the whole point as I understand it, regarding permission for the addition of a grid-tied SSEG to the local network, without the need for any approval.

As I understand it, much of Europe has this permission, the UK doesn't. I'm not saying the UK is wrong, but if it revues the situation, and decides that these upto 800W(AC) PV systems can be allowed, then my question was to follow the logic, and suggest/ask if that leads to other varieties of 800W(AC) plug in devices.

[Saladin]

Most GTIs will have a self consumption of 30W. Nominal 12 hours? = 360Wh per day.
I'd expect a good installation of 800W that looks like this:



not like these greenwash stickers



to produce 2kWh per annual normalised day after quiescent. Given I use maybe 30kWh some days and they'd only ever pay me half what they'd sell it back to me for. I'm better off using it myself.

If it's like the second pic it will likely run net load. -50% for vertical hang. -95% for shading.


If one has a hybrid inverter that both exports and stores surplus PV energy like a Growatt or Multiplus or Xtender or Solis etc. Then these can be assigned to export at any time.
If one thinks of plug in devices as anything that charges that battery in that setup like DC coupled another battery/solar/hydro/wind etc. then yes it does.
If one owns one's network then yes you may plug-in any GTI into your off-grid-tied Multiplus or equivalent as long as the Multiplus is larger..

If a battery was discharging AC past a smart or dumb meter in the daylight the smart meter wouldn't be able to tell whether it came directly from a solar panel or indirectly via an inverter. All it sees is direction, load, duty cycle & power factor.

If you put a ~1.5kW GTI on a 13A plug it will eventually amalgamate into the socket.
You know the way this happens when you use electric heaters continuously?



They're not ideal. Fuses are heaters mating pins can lose their springyness.
16A can handle it better.



Ideally you'd hard-wire it to the CU with AC and DC isolators in the middle.

[Mart]

I have no idea what any of this has to do with my thoughts nor Stinsy's reply.

Perhaps we should get back to the 800W on grid UK DNO regulation review.

[Saladin]

Actually ..... taking it a step further, how about AC side battery systems with a battery/inverter to home AC output of 800W or less, that's 14.4kWh over 18hrs (with 6hrs cheap rate to charge at ~2.5kW) .... hmmmm?

You want to take ~35kWh from the state daily after transmission and round trip charger->inverter conversion losses which might well be double that energy again if it originated as thermal energy at the powerplant...which likely might be a mix of incinerator recycling single use plastics & general combustable waste into electricity and atmosphere, fracked US leaky frozon methane LPG and Australian Coal all with massive transport embodied energy...
Then sell back less than half of that to them for profit translated into FIAT currency?

Legally sounds fine using the DNO network in the eventuality that they legalise it as postulated and Stinsy inferred.

I can't understand the benefit myself...I guess I got side-tracked on better implementations...

Not all kWhs cost the same...but they all have the same potential energy....there's no making sense of it, it's all manipulated...oh dear...I've spent too much time reading the matrix source code again...