Nio 150kWh battery

[Stinsy]

Just pondering/exploring this idea. Not disagreeing with you, just going off on a number crunching thunk.

So, I'm not sure if 200 miles is enough, but probably in the ballpark, if 200 miles in poorer conditions.

I'd also suggest for a second car ~100 miles will do. We got a 24kWh Leaf, with ~70 miles of range, and it quickly replaced ~90% of the miles for the main car (Vauxhall Zafira). Begs the question what is a second car if it's doing most of the miles?

70 was tricky at times, but then we got the IONIQ 28kWh, with 130-150 miles, and that's rock solid as a second car.


Next, pondering the 200 miles and winter range. Always worth considering what the summer to winter range loss is. I often see articles suggesting 20-30% less than summer, but they seem to compare winter range to quoted range, whereas most of us will be 10% or so down on the stated figures, even in the summer. The UK/Europe uses WLTP figures, and these are generous. The US EPA figures are much fairer, and the Youtube channels typically take 12% off the WLTP quoted ranges when chatting about European BEV's. That seems fair.

Quick check of the Tesla website and its US version, and I see the base model 3 has a UK (WLTP) range of 305 miles, and a US (EPA) range of 272 miles. 272 sounds doable with good/smooth driving, in good conditions from the 60kWh (57.5kWh useable) battery. But sustained 70mph will probably be a bit less. [I've gotten 4m/kWh at 70mph from both a LR TM3 and TMY, which are heavier with the bigger batts and dual motors.]

So, that suggests to me, that ~50kWh will be enough, for most people, unless they do a lot of driving, and the charging infrastructure isn't good enough. Also worth considering that in very poor conditions, when efficiency will be less, there's a good chance you'll be driving slower (helping efficiency/range), and this will also be more tiring, so stopping (and a recharge) will be beneficial.

Pondering the 100kW charge rate. Again, I think that works well, if sustained, for a 50kWh/200mile+ battery as it would charge in 30mins, and provide ~3hrs of driving. For a long, pleasure trip, I'd be OK with that. But, for that smaller percentage who need more range, and drive further and more frequently, then 200kW would be better.

Putting the Tesla example aside, especially as they unlock more of their supercharger locations, there are a growing list of 250 mile range BEV's, such as the MG4 long range at £30k. [Note the 160 mile cold highway range is based on -10C.]

My perfect ultra-long journey would be: 200miles first hop then 100mile hops thereafter. Assuming 4mi/kWh, that is 50kWh for the first hop (charged at home) then 25kWh charges thereafter which at 100kW means 15mins charge, just enough to walk to the services, have a pee, buy a coffee, and walk back to your car. If you rush!

This obviously relies on perfectly spaced, available, and working rapid-chargers. Which hasn't been in-place previously but we are pretty much there now. And the above isn't perfectly rigid. I have no problem with slightly shorter, or slightly shorter hops.

Now the above is for the conditions in which you use the vehicle. Lots of people do their long-distance travel in summer so all-good. I can understand buying a vehicle with more summer range in order to achieve the above in winter. However the real solution is to make the heating systems of BEVs more efficient. Plenty use resistive heaters to heat their batteries/cabins which will significantly reduce winter range. Heat pumps and battery chemistries more suited to wider temperature range will help a lot.

My problem is with the numerous stories I hear about 400-mile BEVs being launched or just around the corner and stories about faster charging, whereas the reality is that this is all complete folly. You need 200 miles and 100kW. Nothing more!

I agree that 100-miles is perfect for the sort of car used by 90% of people. However 200-miles is enough for anyone!

I'd agree with you if you changed 200 miles to 300. Our volvo is around 240 miles range in mixed driving, sub 200 miles on a long motorway journey with high speed and limited regen. This is making us keep an ICE car for journeys to relatives/holidays etc. 300miles would lead to us being a 2 EV household.

Our BEV is the long-distance car and the PHEV is the short-distance car.

I've only rapid-charged it twice in the 4000 miles since having it and both times were a breeze. Driving it to Cornwall in August and will need to rapid-charge both directions. However I anticipate no problems. The trick seems to be to avoid the 2x, 10-year old, probably broken, 50kW rapids at most MSAs and stick to the big hubs and other new charging spots that aren't at MSAs.

[Mr Gus]

Stinsy, if going too / past Eden project, their chargers are worth using, no limit on time useage LOW season, limited hours per use HIGH season, (which if nearby makes getting the annual pass cheap & convenient to charge several times & do a proper visit over several days.

Obviously getting in & out there when it is closed is not a problem just to use the chargers if you look for BEV charging around cornwall online.

[Mart]

Tesla Model 2 will have 53kWh LFP battery, with likely 270 miles of range. If they can do it or £25K they wont be able to make them quick enough

Yeah, will be a monster if the price is right.

I'm totally guessing now, but charging speeds, assuming it'll begin a bit lower than a LR 3 or Y (as the pack will be a bit smaller), would probably be 200kW, perhaps down to ~100kW by 60% full. But as I say, total guesses, but that's, say an average 150kW from zero to 60%, so about 30kWh, and 150 miles of range in 12 mins.

Obviously you could take longer if you wanted, but that would be acceptable, I think, even for a very long journey.

They are already in trouble, but by 2025 I think legacy ICE auto is in BIG trouble.

[Andy]

The trick seems to be to avoid the 2x, 10-year old, probably broken, 50kW rapids at most MSAs and stick to the big hubs and other new charging spots that aren't at MSAs.

I've just done a zap map check and there are a load more 100kw+ chargers than when I last looked a year ago. The rub is that it is currently cheaper per mile to drive a pickup truck once out of range of the house. That's hardly going to encourage the masses to switch. However 600 miles range would almost get me to the relatives in Cornwall from aberdeenshire avoiding all the expensive chargers. I wonder how much it costs?

[Stinsy]

I've just done a zap map check and there are a load more 100kw+ chargers than when I last looked a year ago. The rub is that it is currently cheaper per mile to drive a pickup truck once out of range of the house. That's hardly going to encourage the masses to switch. However 600 miles range would almost get me to the relatives in Cornwall from aberdeenshire avoiding all the expensive chargers. I wonder how much it costs?

I'm glad prices for en route charging are high. That is what is encouraging companies to invest in what is now great provision and will soon be plentiful provision.

If you're really driving from Aberdeenshire to Cornwall without stopping you're silly. And if you are stopping you might as well charge.

I pay 7.5p/kWh to charge my car at home and I gladly pay 10x that on the super-rare occasions I charge away from home. You should see how much the ice creams cost at the beach in Cornwall in comparison to those you eat at home!

Aberdeen to Abington = 175 miles
Abingdon to Burton-in-Kendal = 100 miles
Burton-in-Kendal to Stafford = 100 miles
Stafford to Cullompton = 175 miles
Cullompton to St Ives = 125 miles

These stops are 10-20mins at 100kW and are sensibly spaced at big charging hubs.

[Andy]

And if you are stopping you might as well charge.

I presume chargers have been accessible for you? Last time we went in the EV charging added 7 1/2 hours to the journey due to negotiating chargers that were all occupied/broken/locking the car in etc. This happened in both directions so I'm afraid we take the diesel guzzler now. Last time we went I kept a weather eye on chargers on the way down. There were queues for all of them. So I am still not convinced.

[Stinsy]

And if you are stopping you might as well charge.

I presume chargers have been accessible for you? Last time we went in the EV charging added 7 1/2 hours to the journey due to negotiating chargers that were all occupied/broken/locking the car in etc. This happened in both directions so I'm afraid we take the diesel guzzler now. Last time we went I kept a weather eye on chargers on the way down. There were queues for all of them. So I am still not convinced.

Maybe that was a long time ago. Maybe you chose poor places to stop.

For example, MSAs are generally-speaking poor places to charge. I’ve seen people queuing for the 2x chargers at Oxford services when at the next junction is a 32 charger Instavolt site.

[Jinx]

Stopping every 100 miles would put most people off imo, 200 maybe, approx 3 hours of motorway, nobody pee’s every 90 minutes!
Also the fact a 15min charge is actually, if you’re lucky, a 25-30min stop, once you have exited, parked, payed, then the reversal. Longer charging is more efficient time wise as the faff then becomes a lower percentage of stop time. Once a year holiday goers it might be bearable but not for even semi regular trips.

[Mr Gus]

depends, do we all drink enough fluid?

typically coffee & tea make you pee anyway (diuretics)

Me? I have a bladder of a shire horse, but over a 20 min trip I may sup between 750ml to a litre of water / juice.

For a trip to stanstead, sip cautiously on 2 litres
trip up north over 3 hrs likely 3 litres..

overnight whistle wetting 750 ml - 1litre.

Tea, first thing in morning 3 mugs, +juice, (I knocked tea back by half)

Most blokes in the pub pee every 1.5 pints to start with, (for me it is usually around 5th or 6th pint in)

Stick me in a car after 3 pints of crashy fen road pot holes & I may ask to pull over or suffer quiet discomfort all the ride home, ..a different kettle of fish altogether.

I also have a mate who pee's (always has) before a pint is even over, "Winky" wee bladder, ..everyone is different, & thats just us males, ..childbirth can often mess women over in respects of bladder retention too, not to mention medications, colder temps etc.

Many different scenarios, ..plus in our ev's we drive in a more relaxed manner, aware of energy consumption ..which can add time, or simply be more chill & less hurried, not flogging ourselves to beat the clock, or with the big live conditions sat nav & estimated arrival, adaptive to change.

Road vibration is not like sitting in a pub drinking even, it seems to exassipate the need to pee imho.
When I commuted & worked in london ( having moved away from SE1) a long day would see me regularly drinking 5 or 6 litres from my 1litre capacity sigg bottle train, underground pollution, office conditions, general hydration etc.. on the farm it was the same but less pollution, drinks to warm / cool, you grabbed inbetween moments of activity.

I want to get out, stretch my legs, hips, back injuries too, smell fresher air, not slog a journey, ..the concept of slower yet enjoyable travel came home to me with a trad L reg (as was) vw camper, lowered springs towing a jet-ski or similar, easy after that & a lot less strife (bacon butty & a cuppa pit stop) removed the foot down imprint (odd considering my mate used to race go karts & beat pre-F1 names like coulthard & drove his work van like it was on a track)

The leaf, needed charging when we got to MK or similar, whilst the tesla doesn't need so much wife followed the ABC splash & dash principle ..look at it this way, if on a long drive with 10 mins to spare you will gravitate towards having a pee because you can & likely you don't want to chance it elsewhere unscheduled.. so it turns into a waking up refreshment routine.

If you travel around france you go when you find an. "acceptable" loo . .because they are few & far between (take your own toilet seat)

I also think many men are still of the mindset of stopping & peeing at the car tyre, ...not thinking how problematic that is for women, privacy, risks, dignity, cleanliness, ..which I cannot blame them for.

[Mr Gus]

Commuting to high wycombe (car) we would leave around 5.40 am & aim to arrive for 8.15 but due to roadworks (outward & return) that might turn into 4 hours, but was still only around 93-98 miles either way.

There is a big difference between hours on the road & milage covered, ..& a bladders comfort (read as mind alert & on the road 100% or otherwise)

No wonder others call them comfort breaks, they should be that, despite the loo / france situation we love driving out there based on well priced food stops that make a less frantic drive more of a "trip pleasure" ..3 course fresh cooked steak meal, coffee afterwards, ..for about the price of a crappy motorway BK meal deal or a couple of starbucks? ..no brainer.