Will heat pumps cause blackouts?

[spread-tee]

Hi Mart, it's fun getting your head around these issues, well I think it is ......

Next, how much heat does PV avoid. If a panel generates 1kWh of leccy, has it reduced the solar gain from the sun by 1kWh(t), I really don't know.


The global balance remains exactly the same as far as I know, all energy consumed or generated eventually ends up as heat after converting it or making it do useful work. That beam of sunlight would otherwise hit a surface and warm it up directly, and then be re-radiated to the wider environment. The same beam hitting a PV panel will warm it up, but also some will be converted to electricity, which we then use to do work of some kind but eventually it ends up as heat.

With a heat pump you get that leccy to do some work moving some energy , usually heat, from the air or ground and move it into your house, or out of it. The overall net energy gains from the sun are the same, we don't ever actually create or destroy energy just convert it into one form or another, move it around a bit and get it to do useful work on the way, we hope!

Desp

[Ken]

Remembering that HPs do not not create heat energy they just move it from one place to another.

So the energy added is the leccy to power the HP. So in energy terms that is what has happened. In pollution terms if powered by PV then its zero (discounting embedded energy). In money terms it could be zero but probably not because there is other uses for the energy.

I struggled with the question a bit so i hope i got it.

Personally i believe there are many ways of controlling house temp in the UK without resorting to AC but then again if it is there for the heat in winter why not use it as AC consumes little.

It is because of the AC aspect that the Gov is reluctant to promote/support. I think this is a really bad decision as A to A HP could easily heat say 50% of dwellings ( my guess) at a fraction of the cost of a FF system or A-W HP.

[Ken]

That title "Will heat pumps cause blackouts" is doing my head in.

The stupidity and ignorance embedded in the statement is immense.

In the UK blackouts dont occur from lack of capacity but from an occurence that could not be predicted , an accident if you like eg a pylon being knocked over or somebody putting a spanner in the works.
The Nat Grid are already taking measures to account for EVs and HPs etc.

I believe we will soon be told, as against asked, to have Smart meters and then TOU (time of use) tariffs will naturally come about. If someone wants to charge their EV and run the HP during the expensive times so be it but rest assured the vast majority will not ie problem solved.

[Mart]

Many thanks Desp and Ken. It seemed logical, but life is often not as simple as that.

So ..... I feel somewhat safe in saying that A/C hopefully isn't a negative, so long as we don't use it uneccessarily, run it from PV, and make greater use of the A2A for space heating, thus displacing FF use, or even leccy resistive heating, due to the heatpump COP.

PS @Saladin - not at all disagreeing with you, just looking to see how our options change as we shift ever more leccy over to RE. I'd love to know how many people with resistive leccy heating, such as storage rads, know about A2A units, and the potential energy savings they could get.

[Saladin]

Feel free to disagree all you wish Mart. I am just another disembodied opinion on tinternet.
As infererred PV powered heat pumps are a nil sum gain.

The larger problem is when they're powered by Australian Coal, US fracked methane, incinerated rubbish or heavy fuel oil etc etc... Which is most normy houses on the mainland and across the pond.
Now realise that the fuel had to be transported to the powerplants usually with FF. Our powerplants are at best 60% efficient. The transmission losses are in the order of 50% efficient.

Using 1kWh at your home imported from a centralised distribution network cost 3.2kWh of thermal energy at the powerplant. It also means we're sponsoring the industries that're making the problem worse.

[Moxi]

60% efficiency is the realms of CC gas turbine power stations, some nuclear power stations manage 32% I think the best the AGR fleet got was 42% the PWR around 36%, coal fired and bunker (Orimulsion) could be as low as 30% if we are speaking of the old smaller CEGB stations which were subcritical. A very modern CHP station could be up around the same efficiency of PWR and AGR power stations but it would not load follow as this requirement kills efficiency.

The ideal as mentioned by most here is that power should always be generated at or close to the point of consumption.

Moxi

[Saladin]

It's pretty bad before it even gets to the furnace.
LNG is ridicoulsy energy intensive to "bottle" and it leaks. Coal isn't easy to extract you're effectively Ctrl+Xing a landscape.
Nuclear needs a lot of cooling which in turn heats waterways.
Transport ships burn the dregs of the refinerys in their engines.
Plastic waste...we're effectively mules for the power companies paying to ship it to them...compostable packaging has been available a long time now..

I was chatting to a Russian who was proudly saying that Russia was one of the few countries to recycle spent Uranium rods from their nuclear plants. I asked for what? Depleted uranium warheads? ...I got a meek nod.

Another consideration regarding power demand is our population is shrinking.
Bitcoin and the AI seem do be doing more harm than good surprise surprise. They're very power and water intensive tech.

[nowty]

Next, how much heat does PV avoid. If a panel generates 1kWh of leccy, has it reduced the solar gain from the sun by 1kWh(t), I really don't know.

Do you not remember my experiment proving operating panels run cooler than disconnected ones.
https://camelot-forum.co.uk/phpBB3/view ... f=11&t=290

[Mart]

Next, how much heat does PV avoid. If a panel generates 1kWh of leccy, has it reduced the solar gain from the sun by 1kWh(t), I really don't know.

Do you not remember my experiment proving operating panels run cooler than disconnected ones.
https://camelot-forum.co.uk/phpBB3/view ... f=11&t=290

Hiya. Actually I did and that was what prompted my thinking, but couldn't recall if the heat and energy matched.

[Mart]

Feel free to disagree all you wish Mart.

Kinda feel I should start arguing with you about not disagreeing with you, just to turn this into some sort of Monty Python parody.


Perhaps it's the ultimate irony if PV powered heatpumps help with A/C, trumping the unfortunate irony, that more A/C will be needed around the World due to AGW.

I may be overthinking this ...... just a tad.