Woodsmoke...

[AE-NMidlands]

but there isn't a volcano just outside my bedroom window...

No but i have your gas boiler.

which certainly doesn't do this:




Note the blackened unused pot chimney beside it and the rain-washed soot run down the chimney stack.

[Mr Gus]

Yup, joes debdale has a catalytic converter built in, which is advantageous.

In the States there are in line catalytic converters for sale so it is easy to fit & reduce (with good burn practise) BUT ..papers overlook this like it doesn't exist (because of ignorance or fear of ruining a good story) ..it would on the other hand be helpful to simply state, "there are retro fit cats available" ..that I'd be fine with, but clearly over numerous years they don't care too whenever they've trotted out the same copy & paste.

https://www.motherearthnews.com/diy/woo ... az84ndzraw (mother earth 2018)

There are / were many woodburners in "st elsewhere" forum ..so good practise was discussed heavily as many no doubt remember, it seems though that cats are never discussed because they are hidden away, but if your stove back / pipe is accessible they are an easy addition to a good few responsible owners to take even more action to reduce their output.

Nope I wasn't referring to anyone on here when I mentioned wbs haters, just glib media who seem to have the least grasp but the most impact when it comes to tearing down a useful, soothing form of heating. (Junior copywriter, you have an hour to read these mirror image articles & change the words around)

We've all seen machine mart badly cast offerings that never sealed from New & despise them & their ilk, ban them, put info out like years ago when cats were new to cars, there were many descriptions on what they were & how they worked, but not in this instance, not each & every news cycle that sits with burn seasons, & that stinks. ..misinformation sucks & their article would be better written with more info & "a way out" ..akin to how carbon capture & burial tech is given.

A bolt on cat converter or a wbs with an inbuilt one is easier to describe than that yet gets naff all page space, that is maddening.

When I've had a portable hobby meter TVOC / HCHO etc with me & been in the pub that gives off screeching readings near smokers for ages (for instance)
Stand near a pizza oven ..ditto (yet to see the papers insisting these businesses need banning from homes & gardens, wedding parties, street markets etc)
Go to a restaurant with a woodfire anything at the other end of the place still high levels.
Coals brought out to cook food on, ditto, which means the summer bbq at home & pro bbq industry needs stymying off too..yet isnt ..very selective reporting & demonizing then!? yes.I

When I look at Camden London (an area that is a controlled smoke zone) an area that exceeds WHO numbers where PM2.5 is concerned, I don't see street business being restricted & I have yet to see a street pizza oven with a cat converter fitted, it isn't even a consideration for a business that will be knocking em out for more hours per year than that of a seasonal burner for home heating (for instance)

If anyone in "the smoke" could ask a few mobile wood oven pizza operators to verify this isn't a licensing condition that'd be grand.

This piece is good in that it questions procedures where data capture is concerned. https://www.cibsejournal.com/technical/ ... ing-pm2-5/

[Mr Gus]

All I can say is that I live in a suburban street and am surrounded by them, including the houses either side and in streets in front and behind, so we get it whatever the wind direction. This autumn has been very mild, thank goodness, but it has started again in the last week or two...
Almost nobody seems to have any technical competence or sense of social responsibility (like drying wood before use.) We are trying to ventilate our double glazed Victiorian house adequately but we still have to dash around shutting every window tight to prevent the rooms get filled with filth as the polluters light up and then keep topping up.
The window-sills show up just how much black crap drops out, so the finer stuff that stays airborne is clearly worse and much more penetrating. Grrrr!

I feel for you there, however good burning practise or not we seem to be tarred. (sic) & lump(wood) -ed in as the big problem when in truth many surround us.

Govt could ban aerosol deodorant as harmful (for instance) hair spray ..remember how cloying "cossack" was lads
Can you see perfumes & aftershave being banned!? all high in VOC's & designed to linger.

Even though fifteen times more petroleum is consumed as fuel than is used as ingredients in industrial and consumer products, the amount of chemical vapours emitted to the atmosphere in scented products is roughly the same, says lead author Brian McDonald, CIRES scientist working at NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration). A paper published in the journal Science (Feb 2018) states that VOCs emitted from petrochemicals products like perfumes, paint, pesticides and glues now contribute to half of fossil fuel VOC emissions in thirty-three industrialised cities.

...

The problem is that the beauty products designed to make you smell like Kim Kardashian are formulated to evaporate, taking your intoxicating aroma and the chemicals into the air around you. "Perfume and other scented products are designed so that you or your neighbour can enjoy the aroma," Jessica Gilman, NOAA atmospheric scientist and co-author of the study said. "You don't do this with gasoline."

For example.

[Mr Gus]

My coal burning neighbour came screaming at the door this summer because I was having an extended one time only burn in the garden out of necessity.
The other option was to wait until the wind was blowing the other direction & burn many acres of ripening grain crops next door & maybe some ancient woodland.
(My only bonfire in 20 years btw because I have meticulously hand shredded everything till now for proper mulching & composting)

I even had it raised up with a long flue on the incinerator to reduce any potential inconvenience, aerate the burn, used wood in the bottom to get a good dry fast burn whilst everything was summer dry & as much moisture was out of burn material as I could.

Now I have to start over when it is set seasonally & no chance of drying, a classic smoulder.

[Ken]

but there isn't a volcano just outside my bedroom window...

No but i have your gas boiler.

which certainly doesn't do this:




Note the blackened unused pot chimney beside it and the rain-washed soot run down the chimney stack.

Yes that is not good and something i would not support.

The problem is that the difference between a open fire,running cold burning unseasod wood and crap, and the the latest stoves burning seasoned wood is almost chalk and cheese. We now have new open fires are banned and the new standards on stoves and the wood but we need to ban open fires completly and then assess the situation. Not sure any gov has the political will to push that through.

[Bugtownboy]

I think a progressive approach, ok I’m a wood pyromaniac, is sensible. As Ken states, first off, ban open fires - they’re demonstrably inefficient.

Ban fossil - nuff said.

How you manage the rest, don’t know.

I’m really not convinced (and by looks of it, neither is DEFRA) at our ability to measure accurately PM’s and positively assign them to a particular source.

I do believe improving the stock of wood burners will massively improve the emissions - Joe and Gus have already alluded to this.

We should not exclude a system that provides an essential heat source for so many homes and as a secondary source for many others.

But, how do you avoid the disaster that AE has ?

Frankly, looking at the chimney pot, he’s got serious issues. How you manage that - don’t know.

Should it be down to an individual to complain ?

Probably the only option open is to moan to the local council as a nuisance issue, but then you have to live with the consequences.

I think it’s too easy to demonise ‘woodburners’. I’m sure the options do allow, maybe not in all circumstances, woodburners to be used in an environmentally social manner.

[Andy]

Unfortunately its not only the outside environment that is affected.There were studies a few year from Norway or Finland, I forget which, looking at PM2.5 in the home. The act of opening the door to reload releases a huge amount into the house causing pulses throughout the day. The levels are way above the limits set and it doesn't matter if the wood is dry or not. I think they said it was worse than passive smoking. The damn stuff gets into all organs in the body.

It is difficult. I grew up with two wood stoves as the only heating in an old farm house. We've had one in our current place for 7 years but don't use it quite as much as we used to. As people allude too, what will replace the fires if they are banned? My parents still run on the two wood stoves now albeit more modern variants. The house has no central heating/insulation so modern alternatives will not work.

[Joeboy]

Unfortunately its not only the outside environment that is affected.There were studies a few year from Norway or Finland, I forget which, looking at PM2.5 in the home. The act of opening the door to reload releases a huge amount into the house causing pulses throughout the day. The levels are way above the limits set and it doesn't matter if the wood is dry or not. I think they said it was worse than passive smoking. The damn stuff gets into all organs in the body.

It is difficult. I grew up with two wood stoves as the only heating in an old farm house. We've had one in our current place for 7 years but don't use it quite as much as we used to. As people allude too, what will replace the fires if they are banned? My parents still run on the two wood stoves now albeit more modern variants. The house has no central heating/insulation so modern alternatives will not work.

Cant retrofit any insulation for them Andy? I ask not as a slight or similar. My experience to date of woodstoves is only of one Winter and heading into second now. carrying out all our home sealing and insulating endeavors and then room sealing the stove into an external air feed we are seeing massive benefits and heat retention.

Just as an example, its quite mild here today so 12 deg outdoors earlier, yesterday morning cars had frost on them. We have had stove on since 07.00 hrs (3hrs) today and the three big interlinked rooms at rear of house are sitting at 20.6 deg and rising with upstairs being at 16.5 deg. Its a good walk to upstairs from the stove yet due to the works we have carried out (incl the outstanding eco fan 812 on top of the stove) we are getting full benefit of the stove while minimising downside. No GCH running today and i am going to make that my mission this year to minimise gas use and maximise stove use. The picture of the chimney belching out pollutants is as far away from how i operate as it is possible to be. I truly feel for AE Midlands and would be onto the environmental dept of his local council. If that went on long enough for me I would do a geographical relocate.

Can't help the stupidity and uncaring ignorance of people. Can try and re-educate but after a certain point one must act.(This is about AE's neighbors not yer Ma & Pa, to be clear)!

Personally I see the whole of RE as an interlinked jigsaw, the more pieces you have to hand and understand then one can implement all the better. Bear in mind and for this scenario I am playing for how much of the energy from a single air dried log can I retain within the home. I don't see the point in playing any other way!

There is an enormous amount of info & ideas in this thread along with varied pov's. I'll be referencing it for quite some time i think.

[Mr Gus]

Yeah it's all the Guardians fault, who want's clean air anyway, I don't give a fuck if my stove kills people..................

No point in blowing a gasket about other stuff Gus, the science is pretty solid, wood stoves are dirty polluters, sadly.

Desp

They're all dirty polluters Desp
(& I read the guardian too, but calling out bias matters)

I hate the complete lack of reporting context that fails to add a few words such as " stove / chimney mods may be available, much like a car cat converter" ..its all jump scare tactics with no desire to teach whilst informing.


We bought a battery mower some 16+ years ago, I don't think my daughter was born she's soon 18, battery mowers are only just coming into being.
Petrol mowers are 2 stroke, NOISE MONGERS, & heavily polluting, ..nothing really done that could have been 20 odd years ago.

How do the amount of petrol mowers (also used seasonally) number against wbs in terms of ownership? ..but nothing done.

Patio gas heaters ...pi55ing in the wind. stupidly popular, ..still for sale, but nothing done.

Chimineas (much the same) small openings that don't make them much use as an incinerator either, decorative, heavy, shipped from halfway round the world typically. ..but nothing done.

Now, if someone made a chimney pot attachment that could be utilised in a summer shed / home office with a spark arrestor that would still be technically an open fire ..so not much that can be done, except maybe ban them for excessive pollution when people in the locale are trying to enjoy the outdoors? (too)

Pizza ovens (gaining in popularity) for gardens & as business ventures, ..I love a pizza, it's often frugal in terms of topping (meat etc) char is great,but no catalyctic converters / secondary burn mentioned in any blurb i've come across beyond vendors claiming they use renewable kiln dried wood, often set up on a busy human traffic for market day but not yet seen anyone / council cite pollution as a reason to modify / refuse licensing conditions due to airborne pollutant levels, nor seen a PM 2.5 meter used as "guidance & awareness"

Council burning policies, a complete rarity, left mostly to "wet fish" complaint systems rather than issue firm statements, like garden burning after 10pm when most people are indoors & sealed in, ..we used to light LATE to avoid pee-ing off neighbours when we did a burn, whispering (noise travels as well as pollution) ..building sho-horned housing estates puts people at odds (again proper restrictions would help, but nothing done)

The wet fish complaint relies on threats of nuisance (how bad it is in reality may depend on descriptive ability of complainant) rather than give it teeth through set limits (but with a preference for composting etc) lockdown meant tips shut, so transporting green waste was a no no here, you had to pre-book 2 or more weeks in advance, details of vehicle & limited as to both spaces, times, vehicle had to be inputted, no same day return.
(I understand some complaints need listening too, but wet fish is a good analogy for "it doesn't suit me" ..as explained earlier amongst all this summer growth I could easily have set fire to acres of ripening crops & maybe 10,000 year old woodland, so my choice was simple "greater good"

Diesel ban ...well the govt screwed the pooch promoting them years ago & boosted sales because of ineptitude, hard to climb back up after that debacle, so softly softly.

Idling engines, in town or city I've yet to see cops / wardens / local enforcement, or schools ever take this seriously.
Seen plenty of cops sitting in a cop car with the engine running whilst stationary though, (yes they have a radio drawing energy, but it's not like they have to get out & crank start an engine to use the excuse of " we need to be moving off at a moments notice" same as stopping & tackling pavement parking is not their bag either it's a social norm.

(i've had close calls at zebra crossings weekly due to this lately, typically with large engined "merican style" tradesmens pick up trucks. big fords / mitsubishi type)

Can anyone say they've seen quees for petrol where they were asked to turn off engines? or even govt reminders in the melee that ensued? ..nah me neither.

Simple actions can reduce & part resolve problems, but if its little more than shock reportage not backed up by alternatives then it's like being slapped by a teacher with no explanation of what was wrong to justify it, nor taught how to avoid / reduce likelihood of that slap.

I remember being slapped a lot by a teacher in infants who lost her rag that I couldn't "get" a 12 hour clock lots of slaps resulted in mental block & sheer panic at a clock face till I was 18 & slowly declined till I was 27 or so, "brain freeze" ..punishment with no proper teaching, the guardian is playing for agenda based kicks in these instances if it doesn't do better by means of not just moaning but offering "hybrid" solution perspective *of which there are) ..I haven't seen a proper explanation to Joe bloggs that states what a DEFRA stamped burner does & why it is better in the interim, nor how much it is deemed a cat converter can reduce pollutants via a beneficial secondary incineration burn.

But they do imply that woodburners simply need binning, not addressing cheap tat, not saying why you should look at & understand the tech that may improve the airflow cleaning & flame set as positive sales points, nor a conversation with a decent stove shop / manufacturer who sells this tech already.

That's my frustration "part reportage" depressing with a feeling of the noose is getting tighter (which affects many individual souls to make desperate choices with miserable outcomes)

We prefer informative reading & truth, context & facts to bear any pain incoming compared to bullshit, soft soap & ignorance.

[Joeboy]

Well Mr Gus, What a Cnut she sounds like for a teacher. Hopefully Karma caught up with her and she died screaming.

The damage that can be wrought is terrible. I used to have grown men come up to me offshore embarrassed as they suffered from dyslexia and wanted help with a report or similar. Never once did I ever think about doing anything less than bigging them up and treating the dyslexia as a mere nothing.

Brave guys carrying god knows what ghosts of embarrassment, NO NEED!

Cheers!