spread-tee wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:12 pm
Not sure I'd be using a plug TBH
Desp
EDIT, in fact I am sure, no way would I use a plug!
If it's OK to use a plug to draw 13 amps - kettle etc. - then why is one not good enough for a lot less power in the other direction?
I take the point about not wanting to put it into a ring main, but a spur?
A
In short live pins! doesn't matter what it is plugged into, spur ,radial, or a pylon in the back garden, or what the source is, inverter, generator, nuclear fission pile in the back garden, there is a small but very real risk that the pins could be live when it is unplugged from whatever. In this context inverters are supposed to shut down within so many milliseconds if they don't detect AC voltage, but that relies on electronics which as we all know goes wrong sometimes.
I know the risk is small, but hard wired into a DP switch and the risk is gone. Why wouldn't you? it is easy enough.
It has been interesting to say the least to watch the discussion as to exactly what the regs allow or not as the case may be, but TBH that is all irrelevant, good practice, and common sense says using a plug as a source is just bonkers.
Desp
Re: Plug-in solar devices.
Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:59 pm
by AE-NMidlands
Game, set and match... I promise I won't do it!
A
Re: Plug-in solar devices.
Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:45 pm
by Oldgreybeard
I've seen widow maker leads made up a few times, by people wanting to connect a generator to an existing circuit as a back up. Has to be one of the most lethal contraptions ever thought up, yet still people do it. One chap I knew insisted it was safe, as he never started the generator until after he'd plugged his widow maker in. I got exasperated enough to install a fixed lead to a changeover switch, and a commando on the end to plug into his generator, free of charge, as I was certain he'd just carry on using the widow maker if I hadn't.
Disconnect times for inverters can be quite long. IIRC, the regs only require that they disconnect in something like 5 seconds. If my memory's right, then that seems a long time, given that RCDs have to trip within 40ms at 5X and 300ms at 1X.
Stan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:04 pm
I thought that this tech was limited to a few hundred watts to avoid fried linesmen. Howevever this company https://www.solarshop.co.uk/plug-in-solar-panels sells kits up to 3.6kWp. Please remove if required Mods.
I cannot imagine any of the installations are compliant.
I can confirm the Plug-In Solar Kits we sell are compliant with the UK regulations. This includes G98, which is the most important with regards to safety. All the kits we sell are G98 compliant, meaning in the event of a powercut the energy generation must stop within 0.5 seconds, along with a myriad of other safety protections required by G98.
All of the Solar Panels and mounting systems in our kits are MCS certified (Inverters/Micro-Inverters don't need MCS certification), and all components come with at least 10 year warranties.
Plug-In Solar Kits can simply be wired into the Plug-In Solar Connection Unit that is provided with the kits. Under Part P building regulations (sections 2.7 and 2.8), the addition of a Plug-In Solar Connection Unit is classed as non-notifiable work (apart from in Bathrooms).
In the UK, under the IET wiring regulations, you are NOT allowed to use a standard 3-pin plug to connect a solar system to the mains.
Regulation 551.7.2(ii) states: “The Microgenerator (solar panels) must not be connected to the final circuit by means of a Plug and Socket”
This is why we supply a Plug-In Connection Unit with all our kits. This ensures we abide by all the UK regulations.
Of course, anyone installing our Plug-In Solar Kits, must abide by the IET wiring regulations at all times, and if they are unsure, they MUST consult a professional.
If anyone on this forum has any other questions, you can ask them here, or email us from our website: www.pluginsolar.co.uk
Re: Plug-in solar devices.
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:20 am
by Joeboy
Good to see a supplier weigh in with input.
As I said at the beginning, I think these systems have a place and are a great potentially mobile solution. Although i am not a fan of the mark up on the system. My own array extension that came in at 2.925kWh cost me a total £1,400 incl vat. The nearest equivalent system of 2.88kW from this supplier is £3,389 incl vat. That is a ridiculous mark up (58.7% dearer) and will I think be a restriction on sales.
Regardless, best of fortune to you and keep knocking that planetary carbon count down.
Stan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:04 pm
I thought that this tech was limited to a few hundred watts to avoid fried linesmen. Howevever this company https://www.solarshop.co.uk/plug-in-solar-panels sells kits up to 3.6kWp. Please remove if required Mods.
I cannot imagine any of the installations are compliant.
I can confirm the Plug-In Solar Kits we sell are compliant with the UK regulations. This includes G98, which is the most important with regards to safety. All the kits we sell are G98 compliant, meaning in the event of a powercut the energy generation must stop within 0.5 seconds, along with a myriad of other safety protections required by G98.
All of the Solar Panels and mounting systems in our kits are MCS certified (Inverters/Micro-Inverters don't need MCS certification), and all components come with at least 10 year warranties.
Plug-In Solar Kits can simply be wired into the Plug-In Solar Connection Unit that is provided with the kits. Under Part P building regulations (sections 2.7 and 2.8), the addition of a Plug-In Solar Connection Unit is classed as non-notifiable work (apart from in Bathrooms).
In the UK, under the IET wiring regulations, you are NOT allowed to use a standard 3-pin plug to connect a solar system to the mains.
Regulation 551.7.2(ii) states: “The Microgenerator (solar panels) must not be connected to the final circuit by means of a Plug and Socket”
This is why we supply a Plug-In Connection Unit with all our kits. This ensures we abide by all the UK regulations.
Of course, anyone installing our Plug-In Solar Kits, must abide by the IET wiring regulations at all times, and if they are unsure, they MUST consult a professional.
If anyone on this forum has any other questions, you can ask them here, or email us from our website: www.pluginsolar.co.uk
Thank you for the input. If you take time to read and understand the "regs" you'd know that 551.7.2 only applies to installations where solar is connected to an existing "final" circuit (eg one that has consuming devices also wired into it). It doesn't apply to "dedicated" circuits without consuming devices. So connecting a solar "generating set" via a plug is indeed permitted so long as it is a dedicated circuit. (You might well argue that it is inadvisable to connect a "generating set" via a plug/socket but it IS PERMITTED in certain circumstances.)
Im more interested in how installations of the products you supply comply with the rest of 551.7.2. (Because let's face it they are all installed by DIYers to existing final circuits.)
551.7.2(1): (i) the current carrying capacity of the final circuit conductors shall be greater than or equal to the rated current of the protective device plus the rated output of the generating set.
I don't see anywhere where you explain to customers that they need to swap out their MCB/RCBO for a lower-rated one (or upsize wiring) for an installation of your products to be safe and compliant.
and:
551.7.2(iii) A residual current device providing additional protection of the final circuit in accordance with Regulation 415.1 shall disconnect all live conductors including the neutral conductor
I don't see anywhere where you inform customers that an RCD must be in place and that RCD must be a double-pole design (most aren't).
I can imagine no situation where a DIY installation of your products would be compliant.
Notes have been added including one to Regulation 551.1 stating that the procedure for connecting generating sets up to 16 A in parallel with the public supply is given in The Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity (Amendment) Regulations 2006. For sets above 16 A the requirements of the distributor must be ascertained. The 17th Edition recognises that there are two connection options:
(i) Connection into a separate dedicated circuit
(ii) Connection into an existing final circuit
Connection into a dedicated circuit is preferred. Regulation 551.7.2 sets out the requirements for the two options. The Regulation requires that a generating set used as an additional source of supply in parallel with another source shall either be installed on the supply side of all protective devices for the final circuits of the installation (connection into a separate dedicated circuit) or if connected on the load side of all protective devices for the final circuits must fulfil a number of additional requirements.
Re: Plug-in solar devices.
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:31 pm
by Stan
How does current really divide in a ring main. This practical demon by a qualified electrician will give you food for thought.
Re: Plug-in solar devices.
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:02 pm
by Stinsy
Stan wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:31 pm
How does current really divide in a ring main. This practical demon by a qualified electrician will give you food for thought.
I like the Efixx videos! I have always been a believer that: If you cannot explain it simply then you don't really understand it. These guys are very precise and clear with how they explain stuff.
However the bit of the regs where it talks about "balancing a ring" has always been a complete joke. Utterly impossible to achieve in practice!
My utility room houses my CU along with: a washing machine, dishwasher, tumble drier, and microwave. All of those devices are on the same ring shared with the kitchen and dining room sockets. Do you think all those high power devices right next to the CU are in the middle of the ring? Well I don't!
If I'd wired it I'd have put in a 32A radial in 4mm² for the Utility room, a 32A radial in 4mm² for the kitchen, and split the rest of the house into 2x 20A radials wired in 2.5mm².
Re: Plug-in solar devices.
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:26 pm
by Stan
Yes and then you would know exactly where the current is going. One saving grace is that the main power load for washing machine and dishwasher is water heating and therefore of limited duration. Hopefully the microwave is on short term. That leaves the electric cooker as the main power consumer for long periods and mine has its own dedicated circuit.
I can remember fretting about the size of cable for the 8.5kW dedicated electric shower circuit being a bit light until an electrician said that it was only live for a short time at each use. So 6mm it was.
Re: Plug-in solar devices.
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:28 am
by Andy
Stan wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:26 pm
I can remember fretting about the size of cable for the 8.5kW dedicated electric shower circuit being a bit light until an electrician said that it was only live for a short time at each use. So 6mm it was.
Define short time. My daughter and I have different definitions!