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John Oliver on corporate ‘net zero’ proposals: ‘We cannot offset our way out of climate change’
Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:21 pm
by Mr Gus
Re: John Oliver on corporate ‘net zero’ proposals: ‘We cannot offset our way out of climate change’
Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:45 pm
by Stinsy
Carbon offsets have always been bullshit!
You can offset the carbon emitted by your flight to Benidorm by paying someone to plant a tree. However the carbon is emitted in a few hours by the flight but the tree takes a decade to soak it up. And why can’t you plant a tree without taking the flight.
If anything carbon offsets make things worse because it gives a false clear conscience.
Re: John Oliver on corporate ‘net zero’ proposals: ‘We cannot offset our way out of climate change’
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:12 am
by GarethC
Only as far as they over claim, massively (and that's a huge problem) and there's not an adequate certification standard (although Europe is better, and improving).
The deficiencies of carbon offsetting argue for us to do a lot more of it, not less. I've mentioned before that we offset 3 times our household emissions (for buttons) and that's largely for these reasons. That is, I think I need to offset at least 3 times the calculated amount to be vaguely confident that we're offsetting at least the -actual- amount. At £37 per month, it's more than affordable.
I don't think we can argue that governments and others should spend more to reduce global warming, yet somehow at the same time say we shouldn't spend our own money on the same kind of projects (whether that's planting trees or accelerating the build out of renewables).
Put another way, if we buy EVs, insulated houses completely, stopped flying completely etc, we'd STILL be responsible for too much carbon. I. E. We still wouldn't hit zero, and never will, so what else should we do? And all these measures are beyond most people currently, so isn't carbon offsetting far better than nothing in the meantime?
Highlighting the disparity between claimed reductions and actual reductions is very important I think. But discouraging cargon offsetting completely I don't think is a good idea.
Re: John Oliver on corporate ‘net zero’ proposals: ‘We cannot offset our way out of climate change’
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:06 am
by Stinsy
GarethC wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:12 am
Only as far as they over claim, massively (and that's a huge problem) and there's not an adequate certification standard (although Europe is better, and improving).
The deficiencies of carbon offsetting argue for us to do a lot more of it, not less. I've mentioned before that we offset 3 times our household emissions (for buttons) and that's largely for these reasons. That is, I think I need to offset at least 3 times the calculated amount to be vaguely confident that we're offsetting at least the -actual- amount. At £37 per month, it's more than affordable.
I don't think we can argue that governments and others should spend more to reduce global warming, yet somehow at the same time say we shouldn't spend our own money on the same kind of projects (whether that's planting trees or accelerating the build out of renewables).
Put another way, if we buy EVs, insulated houses completely, stopped flying completely etc, we'd STILL be responsible for too much carbon. I. E. We still wouldn't hit zero, and never will, so what else should we do? And all these measures are beyond most people currently, so isn't carbon offsetting far better than nothing in the meantime?
Highlighting the disparity between claimed reductions and actual reductions is very important I think. But discouraging cargon offsetting completely I don't think is a good idea.
My point is that people/companies justify doing unsustainable things because of offsets. When they really need to stop doing those things.
You can plant the trees AND stop flying (or whatever).
Re: John Oliver on corporate ‘net zero’ proposals: ‘We cannot offset our way out of climate change’
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:28 am
by GarethC
I don't disagree with you. I think we should encourage people to walk the walk as much as they can first and foremost AND carbon offset, since almost nobody in the UK, even us on this forum, have currently, or ever will have, sustainable carbon footprints.
Actually, it would be interesting to ask people on this forum what their strategies are to address their remaining carbon footprints, and how they are comfortable that they are doing enough (taking into account our massive -historic- emissions too). Because, for example, even an investment in Ripple suffers from the 'additionality' problem (would it have happened anyway). An interesting separate thread perhaps.
But to your point, how do we ensure that people don't use carbon offsetting (particularly an almost certainly inadequate amount) as an excuse to AVOID walking the walk (buying that EV etc and otherwise changing their lifestyles)? I'm not sure what the answer to that is, but I do know that it drives me nuts when friends regularly fly to see family and Florida and don't -even- pay the paltry amount to offset (or triple offset, as I encourage them) those emissions.
Re: John Oliver on corporate ‘net zero’ proposals: ‘We cannot offset our way out of climate change’
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 3:43 pm
by robl
So I "must" travel to Munich for work for an Engineering meeting. There will be 3 of us, 2 will fly, I have said I will go by train, as usual. The prices are nuts however:
Flying £180 / person return
Train £371 / person return
Carbon offsetting the return 400kg CO2 of the flight allegedly costs only £10 (including a 1.9x forcing), and I think is so cheap it must be bogus. Could I actually offset that flight somehow in a believable way, with the difference in money ?
What would you do? It's not my money, but the long train journey gets a bit boring, especially in a mask most of the way(German requirement), I've done it several times.
Re: John Oliver on corporate ‘net zero’ proposals: ‘We cannot offset our way out of climate change’
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:21 pm
by Mr Gus
My wife says she is fine with driving to chamonix in the summer from the uk, but doesnt want to consider it in the winter...
Actually the conversation went "I dont mind driving there in summer" (instead of a plane) "but dont think i'm having any of your long snowboards (big mountain 168cm) sticking in my neck" ..a reference to transporting the 8ft surfboard recently
Good on you for taking the train robi, masks!? ...covid is not as finished with us as much as government are finished with
it it will be more than just a German mandate by November in all likelihood & more idiots wailing about christmas being ruined.
Prices in air travel by our normal route to Geneva have really gone up, im loathe to plan any snow trips or even summer alps for another 7 months.
Car hire prices have gone up by 30% or more, ..extra £/€or an automatic to add insult to injury.
Re: John Oliver on corporate ‘net zero’ proposals: ‘We cannot offset our way out of climate change’
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:30 pm
by Joeboy
Mr Gus wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:21 pm
My wife says she is fine with driving to chamonix in the summer from the uk, but doesnt want to consider it in the winter...
Actually the conversation went "I dont mind driving there in summer" (instead of a plane) "but dont think i'm having any of your long snowboards (big mountain 168cm) sticking in my neck" ..a reference to transporting the 8ft surfboard recently
Good on you for taking the train robi, masks!? ...covid is not as finished with us as much as government are finished with
it it will be more than just a German mandate by November in all likelihood & more idiots wailing about christmas being ruined.
Prices in air travel by our normal route to Geneva have really gone up, im loathe to plan any snow trips or even summer alps for another 7 months.
Car hire prices have gone up by 30% or more, ..extra £/€or an automatic to add insult to injury.
How much for car hire per day? I ask as I've booked a car yesterday 22nd Dec to 14th Jan at £20 per day incl insurance.
Re: John Oliver on corporate ‘net zero’ proposals: ‘We cannot offset our way out of climate change’
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 6:04 pm
by nowty
robl wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 3:43 pm
Carbon offsetting the return 400kg CO2 of the flight allegedly costs only £10 (including a 1.9x forcing), and I think is so cheap it must be bogus. Could I actually offset that flight somehow in a believable way, with the difference in money ?
Let's just see how bogus the £10 is to offset 400kg of carbon using good old Solar PV in the UK, cos it's what we know and understand.
Its circa £1 per W for a professional install and 1W installed in the UK generates around 1kWh in a year, but Solar PV takes around 3 years of operation to become carbon neutral. Recent figures for UK average leccy carbon mix per kWh is 193g.
£10 buys 10W of Solar PV and will offset 1.93Kg per year but won't start to save any until the 4th year.
400kg will take a little over 210 years to offset.
Re: John Oliver on corporate ‘net zero’ proposals: ‘We cannot offset our way out of climate change’
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 6:47 pm
by Mr Gus
Joeboy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:30 pm
How much for car hire per day? I ask as I've booked a car yesterday 22nd Dec to 14th Jan at £20 per day incl insurance.
Turkey or Switzerland Joe?
We hire, technically from french side of GVA, polo hired, given a passat (broken from new) so around that size, now cost around £826 automatic, for 7 days .
.shes not finished checking but was simply looking & wishing to be there, thus the "initial" price search.
