camelot-forum.co.uk

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... GTUK_email

...
Anna Krajinska, vehicle emissions manager at T&E, said: “Plug-in hybrids are sold as the perfect combination of a battery for all your local needs and an engine for long distances. But real-world testing shows this is a myth. In city tests, just one of the PHEVs has the electric range advertised, while all three emit more than claimed in commuter driving. Lawmakers should treat PHEVs based on their actual emissions.”
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No surprise really.

I just read that too - Not very surprising, almost no cars have ever met their quoted MPG figures - and how do you measure 'actual' emissions - you have to have some sort of standardised test, otherwise there is no way to compare different vehicles - the new WLTP system is better than the previous one, but it will never be perfect.

I notice they don't mention if petrol, diesel, 'normal' hybrids or BEVs also fail to meet their quoted emissions / ranges, although most of the complaints about BEVs seem to be that the actual range never meets the quoted range, especially in the winter

The main problem is the HMI behind the steering wheel, you can give ten people identical cars send them on an identical route and they will not arrive at the same time with the same remaining fuel quantity some will be close to manufacturers figures some will be a country mile away (they probably have less tyre tread too!)

The biggest variable in comparing cars of any type always seems to be ignored?

When we finally get autonomous cars then maybe we can start to really compare on a level field ? maybe not ?

Moxi

No surprise here either.

Hybrids = "Push-me-pull-u"

How much over the standard non hybrid models for sale do these tend to weigh anyhow?

Are we going full "dieselgate" any time soon!? (again)

Moxi wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:39 am The main problem is the HMI behind the steering wheel, you can give ten people identical cars send them on an identical route and they will not arrive at the same time with the same remaining fuel quantity some will be close to manufacturers figures some will be a country mile away (they probably have less tyre tread too!)

The biggest variable in comparing cars of any type always seems to be ignored?

When we finally get autonomous cars then maybe we can start to really compare on a level field ? maybe not ?

Moxi

Therefore as a sidebar perhaps they ought measure & produce / aggregate driver style & fit the customer into the mileage / pollution return & try to upsell better driving habits with potential additional returns on mileage & reduced pollution, would be good to have a few comparisons, a bit like that zoe driver encountered (mobile hairdresser) who was lead foot & getting 50 miles per "tank" maximum from her zoe & was reverting back to petrol to thrash around the streets.

We know that EV driving requires change, no better time to teach it (which also means morphing crap salesmen into decent ones admittedly)

For instance, a friend of a friend at the local garage was moaning to friend "tesla y is crap" ..cant get to wales & back in a day (salesman / account manager type whose chosen his new lease off a list, no more no less) & has not adjusted so is cursing EV's out in general ...ie "I drive like a twunt" & get sod all mileage but refuse to scrutinise my driving style, speed, nor where I splash & dash, eat & pee.. he's a terrible example of no training drive as before relying on MPkWh statement compared to real world performance of his previous Audi / BMW.

Can't win like this can we eh.

Govt "could demand landmark to landmark of their respective countries to drive home attainable performance to the masses as proper examples rather than cliched bs figures, after all early ev owners & various news / media outlets did it with various L.E to J,O-Groats many times over (too many)

If the consumer doesn't trust your figures publish real country of sale data that is contextual to the nation being sold to.

Mr Gus wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:22 am

Govt "could demand landmark to landmark of their respective countries to drive home attainable performance to the masses as proper examples rather than cliched bs figures, after all early ev owners & various news / media outlets did it with various L.E to J,O-Groats many times over (too many)

If the consumer doesn't trust your figures publish real country of sale data that is contextual to the nation being sold to.

The WLTP standard does have 4 levels depending on the country, with western europe including the 'very high' speed steps, up to 140kmh.
It costs companies loads to test and validate their vehicles as it is, can you imagine if they had to run all their tests multiple times to work for each country - and you'd still get the same issues with different people, different driving styles, in different towns, in different weathers, different traffic levels - whinging that everything isn't exactly as quoted.

I have a small interest in this for work, as we make the wheel bearings for cars, so we have to measure friction performance according to WLTP as friction obviously impacts the energy used to drive the cars.

If you cannot trust the manufacturers statement for real world mileage attained then that's already pretty expensive (& useless) so I think we already need to go further, ..for sprinter van, why not showcase footage of it used for a day as an amazon delivery vehicle start load weight, mid day load weight end day, & charge depletion sort of thing (one of its big markets already right) it's a tangible aid a prospective buyer can get their head around.

All the data metrics available to modern cars, via gps with a "semi" trained driver ..surely not that hard to cite as a dealership example, makes it more believable sales speil.

Hybrids are the worst of all worlds in my book and manufacturers figures are a bigger scandal than Dieselgate. and don't get me started on the Toyota "self charging hybrid" advert!

As you have already identified, the "nut" behind the wheel makes a massive difference to mileage in any vehicle - as do weather conditions.

+1 MM ..nicely cited examples.

Talking about real life experiences, absolutely agree about driving style. I've had a play with both a Tesla 3 and Y on the motorway, and they will both do 250Wh/mile or 4 miles/kWh at 70mph*. However, They are also extremely smooth and feel a bit slow at 70, but with a decent range, or the supercharger network if driving further, it means cruising at 80 is really nice.

Which ties in perfectly with a real life study I saw on Tesla model 3 drivers and Nissan Leaf drivers. The vehicles were tested and found to give 4 miles/kWh for the Tesla, and 3.5 miles/kWh for the Leaf in real world testing. But in real world driving, the numbers flipped round (3.5 for the TM3 and 4 for the Leaf). The fun thing being, that the Tesla drivers with lots of range, and that SC network, drove a bit faster, whilst the Leaf drivers with less range, and less charging opportunities, drove a bit slower and were more careful not to waste any energy. I thought it was a great example of how folk adapt.

*Obviously some distance may be necessary on a hot or cold day, to make up for any initial heating/cooling, but after 20-30 miles, those averages are possible.