Nio 150kWh battery

[Joeboy]

Of interest? 621 mile range.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/nio- ... 17739.html

[Stinsy]

A lot of words there, not much information.

I stand by what I’ve said before: BEVs don’t need more that 200miles of range and they don’t need faster than 100kW charging. I’m looking forward to efficiency improvements reducing the size of battery required to deliver the 200 miles of range.

[Joeboy]

It is early days and I agree that info is thin on the ground at the moment. Yet it is an advancement. I'll be looking out for these cars when the are producing for the UK Market.

Re mileage, I'd be happy with 400 range as that takes care of 99.8% of our annual journeys incl Winter mode. I wouldn't want to be nipping about in a 200 mile Summer range EV in Winter up here. Even in the current 280 Summer mile car I have to charge in the wild on a return trip to Edinburgh. City to city and back off our own steam is far more appealing.

I don't like people as a rule and leaving myself open to their leavings (damage) or non timely maintenance by the EV charging station companies isn't a place I like to be. In saying that, it's mostly excellent when we are out and about but that one time of stress now and then leaves a bad taste.

[dan_b]

Interesting the information about the energy density.
Ideally you'd like to think that this would mean more battery capacity for more EVs overall with less weight required for each vehicle whilst overall pack energy levels stay the same - not many use cases where 150kWh of energy is actually necessary for a passenger car. But plenty of use cases for making more EVs and for those EVs to be lighter overall.

[Moxi]

I can see these batteries coming in helpful for the tow car market.

Moxi

[Mart]

A lot of words there, not much information.

I stand by what I’ve said before: BEVs don’t need more that 200miles of range and they don’t need faster than 100kW charging. I’m looking forward to efficiency improvements reducing the size of battery required to deliver the 200 miles of range.

Just pondering/exploring this idea. Not disagreeing with you, just going off on a number crunching thunk.

So, I'm not sure if 200 miles is enough, but probably in the ballpark, if 200 miles in poorer conditions.

I'd also suggest for a second car ~100 miles will do. We got a 24kWh Leaf, with ~70 miles of range, and it quickly replaced ~90% of the miles for the main car (Vauxhall Zafira). Begs the question what is a second car if it's doing most of the miles?

70 was tricky at times, but then we got the IONIQ 28kWh, with 130-150 miles, and that's rock solid as a second car.


Next, pondering the 200 miles and winter range. Always worth considering what the summer to winter range loss is. I often see articles suggesting 20-30% less than summer, but they seem to compare winter range to quoted range, whereas most of us will be 10% or so down on the stated figures, even in the summer. The UK/Europe uses WLTP figures, and these are generous. The US EPA figures are much fairer, and the Youtube channels typically take 12% off the WLTP quoted ranges when chatting about European BEV's. That seems fair.

Quick check of the Tesla website and its US version, and I see the base model 3 has a UK (WLTP) range of 305 miles, and a US (EPA) range of 272 miles. 272 sounds doable with good/smooth driving, in good conditions from the 60kWh (57.5kWh useable) battery. But sustained 70mph will probably be a bit less. [I've gotten 4m/kWh at 70mph from both a LR TM3 and TMY, which are heavier with the bigger batts and dual motors.]

So, that suggests to me, that ~50kWh will be enough, for most people, unless they do a lot of driving, and the charging infrastructure isn't good enough. Also worth considering that in very poor conditions, when efficiency will be less, there's a good chance you'll be driving slower (helping efficiency/range), and this will also be more tiring, so stopping (and a recharge) will be beneficial.

Pondering the 100kW charge rate. Again, I think that works well, if sustained, for a 50kWh/200mile+ battery as it would charge in 30mins, and provide ~3hrs of driving. For a long, pleasure trip, I'd be OK with that. But, for that smaller percentage who need more range, and drive further and more frequently, then 200kW would be better.

Putting the Tesla example aside, especially as they unlock more of their supercharger locations, there are a growing list of 250 mile range BEV's, such as the MG4 long range at £30k. [Note the 160 mile cold highway range is based on -10C.]

[Joeboy]

Pure coincidence, out with swmbo just after posting my last reply and we have 4.3 miles per kWh. 313 range. Seen up to 4.5miles per kWh or 328 miles range. Both are Edinburgh and back on a single charge in Summer which is great. Just a shame it falls off such a Winter cliff .

[Stinsy]

A lot of words there, not much information.

I stand by what I’ve said before: BEVs don’t need more that 200miles of range and they don’t need faster than 100kW charging. I’m looking forward to efficiency improvements reducing the size of battery required to deliver the 200 miles of range.

Just pondering/exploring this idea. Not disagreeing with you, just going off on a number crunching thunk.

So, I'm not sure if 200 miles is enough, but probably in the ballpark, if 200 miles in poorer conditions.

I'd also suggest for a second car ~100 miles will do. We got a 24kWh Leaf, with ~70 miles of range, and it quickly replaced ~90% of the miles for the main car (Vauxhall Zafira). Begs the question what is a second car if it's doing most of the miles?

70 was tricky at times, but then we got the IONIQ 28kWh, with 130-150 miles, and that's rock solid as a second car.


Next, pondering the 200 miles and winter range. Always worth considering what the summer to winter range loss is. I often see articles suggesting 20-30% less than summer, but they seem to compare winter range to quoted range, whereas most of us will be 10% or so down on the stated figures, even in the summer. The UK/Europe uses WLTP figures, and these are generous. The US EPA figures are much fairer, and the Youtube channels typically take 12% off the WLTP quoted ranges when chatting about European BEV's. That seems fair.

Quick check of the Tesla website and its US version, and I see the base model 3 has a UK (WLTP) range of 305 miles, and a US (EPA) range of 272 miles. 272 sounds doable with good/smooth driving, in good conditions from the 60kWh (57.5kWh useable) battery. But sustained 70mph will probably be a bit less. [I've gotten 4m/kWh at 70mph from both a LR TM3 and TMY, which are heavier with the bigger batts and dual motors.]

So, that suggests to me, that ~50kWh will be enough, for most people, unless they do a lot of driving, and the charging infrastructure isn't good enough. Also worth considering that in very poor conditions, when efficiency will be less, there's a good chance you'll be driving slower (helping efficiency/range), and this will also be more tiring, so stopping (and a recharge) will be beneficial.

Pondering the 100kW charge rate. Again, I think that works well, if sustained, for a 50kWh/200mile+ battery as it would charge in 30mins, and provide ~3hrs of driving. For a long, pleasure trip, I'd be OK with that. But, for that smaller percentage who need more range, and drive further and more frequently, then 200kW would be better.

Putting the Tesla example aside, especially as they unlock more of their supercharger locations, there are a growing list of 250 mile range BEV's, such as the MG4 long range at £30k. [Note the 160 mile cold highway range is based on -10C.]

My perfect ultra-long journey would be: 200miles first hop then 100mile hops thereafter. Assuming 4mi/kWh, that is 50kWh for the first hop (charged at home) then 25kWh charges thereafter which at 100kW means 15mins charge, just enough to walk to the services, have a pee, buy a coffee, and walk back to your car. If you rush!

This obviously relies on perfectly spaced, available, and working rapid-chargers. Which hasn't been in-place previously but we are pretty much there now. And the above isn't perfectly rigid. I have no problem with slightly shorter, or slightly shorter hops.

Now the above is for the conditions in which you use the vehicle. Lots of people do their long-distance travel in summer so all-good. I can understand buying a vehicle with more summer range in order to achieve the above in winter. However the real solution is to make the heating systems of BEVs more efficient. Plenty use resistive heaters to heat their batteries/cabins which will significantly reduce winter range. Heat pumps and battery chemistries more suited to wider temperature range will help a lot.

My problem is with the numerous stories I hear about 400-mile BEVs being launched or just around the corner and stories about faster charging, whereas the reality is that this is all complete folly. You need 200 miles and 100kW. Nothing more!

I agree that 100-miles is perfect for the sort of car used by 90% of people. However 200-miles is enough for anyone!

[NikoV6]

Tesla Model 2 will have 53kWh LFP battery, with likely 270 miles of range. If they can do it or £25K they wont be able to make them quick enough

[smegal]

A lot of words there, not much information.

I stand by what I’ve said before: BEVs don’t need more that 200miles of range and they don’t need faster than 100kW charging. I’m looking forward to efficiency improvements reducing the size of battery required to deliver the 200 miles of range.

Just pondering/exploring this idea. Not disagreeing with you, just going off on a number crunching thunk.

So, I'm not sure if 200 miles is enough, but probably in the ballpark, if 200 miles in poorer conditions.

I'd also suggest for a second car ~100 miles will do. We got a 24kWh Leaf, with ~70 miles of range, and it quickly replaced ~90% of the miles for the main car (Vauxhall Zafira). Begs the question what is a second car if it's doing most of the miles?

70 was tricky at times, but then we got the IONIQ 28kWh, with 130-150 miles, and that's rock solid as a second car.


Next, pondering the 200 miles and winter range. Always worth considering what the summer to winter range loss is. I often see articles suggesting 20-30% less than summer, but they seem to compare winter range to quoted range, whereas most of us will be 10% or so down on the stated figures, even in the summer. The UK/Europe uses WLTP figures, and these are generous. The US EPA figures are much fairer, and the Youtube channels typically take 12% off the WLTP quoted ranges when chatting about European BEV's. That seems fair.

Quick check of the Tesla website and its US version, and I see the base model 3 has a UK (WLTP) range of 305 miles, and a US (EPA) range of 272 miles. 272 sounds doable with good/smooth driving, in good conditions from the 60kWh (57.5kWh useable) battery. But sustained 70mph will probably be a bit less. [I've gotten 4m/kWh at 70mph from both a LR TM3 and TMY, which are heavier with the bigger batts and dual motors.]

So, that suggests to me, that ~50kWh will be enough, for most people, unless they do a lot of driving, and the charging infrastructure isn't good enough. Also worth considering that in very poor conditions, when efficiency will be less, there's a good chance you'll be driving slower (helping efficiency/range), and this will also be more tiring, so stopping (and a recharge) will be beneficial.

Pondering the 100kW charge rate. Again, I think that works well, if sustained, for a 50kWh/200mile+ battery as it would charge in 30mins, and provide ~3hrs of driving. For a long, pleasure trip, I'd be OK with that. But, for that smaller percentage who need more range, and drive further and more frequently, then 200kW would be better.

Putting the Tesla example aside, especially as they unlock more of their supercharger locations, there are a growing list of 250 mile range BEV's, such as the MG4 long range at £30k. [Note the 160 mile cold highway range is based on -10C.]

My perfect ultra-long journey would be: 200miles first hop then 100mile hops thereafter. Assuming 4mi/kWh, that is 50kWh for the first hop (charged at home) then 25kWh charges thereafter which at 100kW means 15mins charge, just enough to walk to the services, have a pee, buy a coffee, and walk back to your car. If you rush!

This obviously relies on perfectly spaced, available, and working rapid-chargers. Which hasn't been in-place previously but we are pretty much there now. And the above isn't perfectly rigid. I have no problem with slightly shorter, or slightly shorter hops.

Now the above is for the conditions in which you use the vehicle. Lots of people do their long-distance travel in summer so all-good. I can understand buying a vehicle with more summer range in order to achieve the above in winter. However the real solution is to make the heating systems of BEVs more efficient. Plenty use resistive heaters to heat their batteries/cabins which will significantly reduce winter range. Heat pumps and battery chemistries more suited to wider temperature range will help a lot.

My problem is with the numerous stories I hear about 400-mile BEVs being launched or just around the corner and stories about faster charging, whereas the reality is that this is all complete folly. You need 200 miles and 100kW. Nothing more!

I agree that 100-miles is perfect for the sort of car used by 90% of people. However 200-miles is enough for anyone!

I'd agree with you if you changed 200 miles to 300. Our volvo is around 240 miles range in mixed driving, sub 200 miles on a long motorway journey with high speed and limited regen. This is making us keep an ICE car for journeys to relatives/holidays etc. 300miles would lead to us being a 2 EV household.