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Stinsy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 9:02 am A lot of words there, not much information.

I stand by what I’ve said before: BEVs don’t need more that 200miles of range and they don’t need faster than 100kW charging. I’m looking forward to efficiency improvements reducing the size of battery required to deliver the 200 miles of range.

Mart wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:35 am

Stinsy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 9:02 am A lot of words there, not much information.

I stand by what I’ve said before: BEVs don’t need more that 200miles of range and they don’t need faster than 100kW charging. I’m looking forward to efficiency improvements reducing the size of battery required to deliver the 200 miles of range.

Just pondering/exploring this idea. Not disagreeing with you, just going off on a number crunching thunk.

So, I'm not sure if 200 miles is enough, but probably in the ballpark, if 200 miles in poorer conditions.

I'd also suggest for a second car ~100 miles will do. We got a 24kWh Leaf, with ~70 miles of range, and it quickly replaced ~90% of the miles for the main car (Vauxhall Zafira). Begs the question what is a second car if it's doing most of the miles?

70 was tricky at times, but then we got the IONIQ 28kWh, with 130-150 miles, and that's rock solid as a second car.


Next, pondering the 200 miles and winter range. Always worth considering what the summer to winter range loss is. I often see articles suggesting 20-30% less than summer, but they seem to compare winter range to quoted range, whereas most of us will be 10% or so down on the stated figures, even in the summer. The UK/Europe uses WLTP figures, and these are generous. The US EPA figures are much fairer, and the Youtube channels typically take 12% off the WLTP quoted ranges when chatting about European BEV's. That seems fair.

Quick check of the Tesla website and its US version, and I see the base model 3 has a UK (WLTP) range of 305 miles, and a US (EPA) range of 272 miles. 272 sounds doable with good/smooth driving, in good conditions from the 60kWh (57.5kWh useable) battery. But sustained 70mph will probably be a bit less. [I've gotten 4m/kWh at 70mph from both a LR TM3 and TMY, which are heavier with the bigger batts and dual motors.]

So, that suggests to me, that ~50kWh will be enough, for most people, unless they do a lot of driving, and the charging infrastructure isn't good enough. Also worth considering that in very poor conditions, when efficiency will be less, there's a good chance you'll be driving slower (helping efficiency/range), and this will also be more tiring, so stopping (and a recharge) will be beneficial.

Pondering the 100kW charge rate. Again, I think that works well, if sustained, for a 50kWh/200mile+ battery as it would charge in 30mins, and provide ~3hrs of driving. For a long, pleasure trip, I'd be OK with that. But, for that smaller percentage who need more range, and drive further and more frequently, then 200kW would be better.

Putting the Tesla example aside, especially as they unlock more of their supercharger locations, there are a growing list of 250 mile range BEV's, such as the MG4 long range at £30k. [Note the 160 mile cold highway range is based on -10C.]

Stinsy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 1:25 pm

Mart wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:35 am

Stinsy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 9:02 am A lot of words there, not much information.

I stand by what I’ve said before: BEVs don’t need more that 200miles of range and they don’t need faster than 100kW charging. I’m looking forward to efficiency improvements reducing the size of battery required to deliver the 200 miles of range.

Just pondering/exploring this idea. Not disagreeing with you, just going off on a number crunching thunk.

So, I'm not sure if 200 miles is enough, but probably in the ballpark, if 200 miles in poorer conditions.

I'd also suggest for a second car ~100 miles will do. We got a 24kWh Leaf, with ~70 miles of range, and it quickly replaced ~90% of the miles for the main car (Vauxhall Zafira). Begs the question what is a second car if it's doing most of the miles?

70 was tricky at times, but then we got the IONIQ 28kWh, with 130-150 miles, and that's rock solid as a second car.


Next, pondering the 200 miles and winter range. Always worth considering what the summer to winter range loss is. I often see articles suggesting 20-30% less than summer, but they seem to compare winter range to quoted range, whereas most of us will be 10% or so down on the stated figures, even in the summer. The UK/Europe uses WLTP figures, and these are generous. The US EPA figures are much fairer, and the Youtube channels typically take 12% off the WLTP quoted ranges when chatting about European BEV's. That seems fair.

Quick check of the Tesla website and its US version, and I see the base model 3 has a UK (WLTP) range of 305 miles, and a US (EPA) range of 272 miles. 272 sounds doable with good/smooth driving, in good conditions from the 60kWh (57.5kWh useable) battery. But sustained 70mph will probably be a bit less. [I've gotten 4m/kWh at 70mph from both a LR TM3 and TMY, which are heavier with the bigger batts and dual motors.]

So, that suggests to me, that ~50kWh will be enough, for most people, unless they do a lot of driving, and the charging infrastructure isn't good enough. Also worth considering that in very poor conditions, when efficiency will be less, there's a good chance you'll be driving slower (helping efficiency/range), and this will also be more tiring, so stopping (and a recharge) will be beneficial.

Pondering the 100kW charge rate. Again, I think that works well, if sustained, for a 50kWh/200mile+ battery as it would charge in 30mins, and provide ~3hrs of driving. For a long, pleasure trip, I'd be OK with that. But, for that smaller percentage who need more range, and drive further and more frequently, then 200kW would be better.

Putting the Tesla example aside, especially as they unlock more of their supercharger locations, there are a growing list of 250 mile range BEV's, such as the MG4 long range at £30k. [Note the 160 mile cold highway range is based on -10C.]

My perfect ultra-long journey would be: 200miles first hop then 100mile hops thereafter. Assuming 4mi/kWh, that is 50kWh for the first hop (charged at home) then 25kWh charges thereafter which at 100kW means 15mins charge, just enough to walk to the services, have a pee, buy a coffee, and walk back to your car. If you rush!

This obviously relies on perfectly spaced, available, and working rapid-chargers. Which hasn't been in-place previously but we are pretty much there now. And the above isn't perfectly rigid. I have no problem with slightly shorter, or slightly shorter hops.

Now the above is for the conditions in which you use the vehicle. Lots of people do their long-distance travel in summer so all-good. I can understand buying a vehicle with more summer range in order to achieve the above in winter. However the real solution is to make the heating systems of BEVs more efficient. Plenty use resistive heaters to heat their batteries/cabins which will significantly reduce winter range. Heat pumps and battery chemistries more suited to wider temperature range will help a lot.

My problem is with the numerous stories I hear about 400-mile BEVs being launched or just around the corner and stories about faster charging, whereas the reality is that this is all complete folly. You need 200 miles and 100kW. Nothing more!

I agree that 100-miles is perfect for the sort of car used by 90% of people. However 200-miles is enough for anyone!