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Done know if this has been posted here before:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-g ... e-68338031

Not sure the record itself is particularly challenging, but i do think that battery trains are a better idea the trying to electrify the entire network: just electrify strategic sections and run on battery in between. Plus all the benefits of regen braking (do the overhead catenary systems use regen? I know the 750v dc 3rd rail ones don't (or at least they didn't)).

Marcus wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2024 11:01 pm Done know if this has been posted here before:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-g ... e-68338031

Not sure the record itself is particularly challenging, but i do think that battery trains are a better idea the trying to electrify the entire network: just electrify strategic sections and run on battery in between. Plus all the benefits of regen braking (do the overhead catenary systems use regen? I know the 750v dc 3rd rail ones don't (or at least they didn't)).

Do they have solar panels on the carriage roofs? You could get quite a bit up there.

2 things about train roofs: they get filthy from pantograph carbon and from corrosion rubbed off the overhead wires, also they aren't really very big as lots of other stuff is already roof-mounted. So you wouldn't get much power off them even if they were clean: trains generally take megawatts nowadays, so the output from a few hundres watts(p) of panels would probably be consumed just accelerating the weight of the additional pv kit after every stop. And it would be yet another thing to go wrong, when they can't even keep the trains they have now working!

Batteries are being considered (and trialled on Merseyside for new services off the end of the 3rd rail beyond Kirkby and Ellesmere Port - funded entirely by the local governent there.)
They are an obvious option for places where overhead wiring is too difficult (low headroom or conservation areas.) However the Treasury is so determined to cut rail expenditure that nothing is really likely to happen elsewhere. Even easy fully-prepared jobs like Oxenholme to Windermere are not being progressed, even though it would get more diesel trains out of Manchester. This scheme would fit in with battery trains for Barrow (maybe with a top-up wire at the station there.)

P.s there is one though...
https://www.bridgestone.com/bwsc/storie ... /17-2.html

and a better description on https://www.multi-rail.com/news/austral ... y-powered/

The train, which takes a journey of about 3km, connecting Byron Bay to the Elements resort, mounts a group of 77kWh batteries on board that allows you to travel the route from 12 to 15 times a day carrying up to 100 passengers seated. The battery system is sustained thanks to light and flexible solar panels mounted on the roof, capable of producing 6.5 kW of power and the entire traction apparatus is completed by a device, already seen in hybrid vehicles, which allows energy to be recovered during braking that can be spent to save 25% of that needed during acceleration.

and quite good pics/diagrams, screenshots of which are too big to post here!
The whole article makes it clear that they can only just get away with it for this limited duty.

AE-NMidlands wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2024 9:54 am 2 things about train roofs: they get filthy from pantograph carbon and from corrosion rubbed off the overhead wires, also they aren't really very big as lots of other stuff is already roof-mounted. So you wouldn't get much power off them even if they were clean: trains generally take megawatts nowadays, so the output from a few hundres watts(p) of panels would probably be consumed just accelerating the weight of the additional pv kit after every stop.

A battery powered train doesn't need a pantograph or overhead wires, in fact the whole point would be to avoid those costs.

The other link from the Byron Bay train is interesting, seems like a terrible solar roof design though with all the air vents casting shadows and wasted roof space without solar. Surprising they only use a seemingly tiny 77kWh battery but with 6.5kWp of solar on the roof. Looks like they could easily double or possibly even quadruple the solar with a more appropriate roof design.



So I think bring on the electric battery trains and improved designs!

Come on... it does 9 round trips a day, each one a whole 5 minutes long (or 10 depending on which webpage you look at,) on level track! And in a clean air beach / resort environment at that.
The closest we have to that might be the Stourbridge town shuttle, which spends all day doing 3-minute trips with a 2-minute turnround at each end!
Or St Erth to St Ives, this one a 10-minute journey with a 5-minute layover at one end and a 3 or 4-min layover at the other!
Modern trains are relatively heavy (for crash-resistance) and probably quite unlike that historic one in Australia. All credit to them though, if it works on the service that they run, why burn diesel fuel? I did note

To avoid disruptions on cloudy days, a 30kWp photovoltaic system was installed halfway along the route, allowing the train to remain powered [presumably meaning topping-up while it hangs around waiting for the charge to complete] at all times. Only in an emergency can the second diesel engine start operating.

About ten years ago I did a night shift in the cabs of a double ended diesel-electric goods train with about 10 wagons. The ammeter showed about 2000A while accelerating and it dropped to nearly nothing once rolling at a constant speed (18mph mostly with up to 30 on one 5 mile stretch we went back and forth on).

AE-NMidlands wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2024 6:35 pm Come on... it does 9 round trips a day, each one a whole 5 minutes long (or 10 depending on which webpage you look at,) on level track! And in a clean air beach / resort environment at that.
The closest we have to that might be the Stourbridge town shuttle, which spends all day doing 3-minute trips with a 2-minute turnround at each end!
Or St Erth to St Ives, this one a 10-minute journey with a 5-minute layover at one end and a 3 or 4-min layover at the other!
Modern trains are relatively heavy (for crash-resistance) and probably quite unlike that historic one in Australia. ..

I guess following that line of thinking: Battery electric trains won't work in the UK? They shouldn't stop to charge? Large solar arrays wouldn't produce useful charge?

Does that translate from other battery technology transport advances too, BEV's, Electric ships? I don't think so.

I don't know where the cynicism of battery trains whilst still in their infancy comes from, the Byron Bay train looks like a fun conversion test and a whole different beast to a properly thought through and ground up design, which I guess the Alstom GWR route trains are at least trying to get to. I can still only see them getting better and being able to fill a hole on some routes that would otherwise use diesel engines.

The link Marcus posted:

BBC News wrote: "It's also worth noting that in reaching the 86 miles on Wednesday, the train was operating in a real-world environment, at speeds of up to 60mph, stopping and starting over a hilly route, with elevation changes of up to 200m."

That sounds pretty useable to me!

AlBargey wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2024 9:20 pm I guess following that line of thinking: Battery electric trains won't work in the UK? They shouldn't stop to charge? Large solar arrays wouldn't produce useful charge?

Battery trains will have a niche role here, I pointed out above that Merseyrail are trialling them now.

Does that translate from other battery technology transport advances too, BEV's, Electric ships? I don't think so.

Of course they are worth doing, it's horses for courses. The Helsingor ferries have been BE for years now, but additional fuel storage load or volume isn't much of a problem on a ship.

I don't know where the cynicism of battery trains whilst still in their infancy comes from, the Byron Bay train looks like a fun conversion test and a whole different beast to a properly thought through and ground up design, which I guess the Alstom GWR route trains are at least trying to get to. I can still only see them getting better and being able to fill a hole on some routes that would otherwise use diesel engines.

The link Marcus posted:

BBC News wrote: "It's also worth noting that in reaching the 86 miles on Wednesday, the train was operating in a real-world environment, at speeds of up to 60mph, stopping and starting over a hilly route, with elevation changes of up to 200m."

That sounds pretty useable to me!

It does sound promising, but that is only a 43-mile return journey. Not many UK lines are that short, but maybe it is early days. The problem is that for most of our needs a train will need megawatt-hours of storage and there wouldn't be the volume available, plus most of our schedules have been screwed up so tight that there isn't generally an hour to recharge at either end.

Maybe there will be a change in the way the charging is dealt with. For example, rather than embed all the batteries in the engine unit perhaps have the majority in a seperate unit that they can simpy exchange and then charge up whilst not in service - similar to the lorry concept in Australia. Maybe rather than just change the battery unit it is a piece of rolling stock on the train that they change similar to changing an engine or carriage.

Timetables can be adjusted especially if planned properly, so scheduling a longer break on the journey to take on more energy however that is to be done thereby allowing the newer technology could be possible. Electric trains could possibly run faster than the diesel with little overall chang in how far the train can travel in the day.

Multiple battery units may be a possibility for longer journeys, remember steam trains sometimes used more than one tender.

We don't have all the answers today, but I am sure we will find more in the furure, and no having the answer today is not a good reason not to develop the concept.