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SIZEWELL C

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:06 am
by ALAN/ALAN D
The government is putting up £100m to support the planned Sizewell C
Its only a few Quid less than what's required.

The investment marks the latest stage in efforts to build the £20bn reactor on the east coast of England.

Re: SIZEWELL C

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:34 am
by dan_b
Weird isn't it - £100 million is in no way £20 billion is it?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60140854

Re: SIZEWELL C

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:37 am
by Mr Gus
How many turbines for £100 million?

How much to "police" those wind turbines?

(around 1500 civil nuclear constabulary "CNC" personnel on the payroll)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Nuc ... nstabulary

This 12 year OLD piece sees the personnel (from when there appeared to be a mere 750 CNC staff at a cost of around £57 million per annum) ..so the govt funds (taxpayers) are dropping what would amount to maybe less than a year of site security in 2022 :roll:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... rt-network

Re: SIZEWELL C

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:38 am
by Mart
Mr Gus wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:37 am How many turbines for £100 million?
Just a rough guess for onshore wind at about £1m/MW, then we have 100MW which at a cf of 30% would be 30MW, roughly 100th of the SZC gen at 2.94GW (92%cf), for 1/200th of the cost. I think HPC is now estimated at £23bn.


But more importantly I think is the need to reduce CO2 emissions asap, we simply don't have enough time to wait for nuclear to be built, so we need to consider the amount of CO2(e) displaced, and the timetable for doing so:-

In Europe, let's be generous and price nuclear low, and wind and solar high - so based on nuclear generation costing £100/MWh, and RE costing £50/MWh. [This is weighted in favour of nuclear to avoid any bias.]

Also let's assume no RE generation for 5yrs, but some RE is much faster, and often modular, v's 15yrs for nuclear approval, building and commissioning. This again avoids any bias, but RE could be generating in 1yr+. [Obviously I'm not taking the claims of 9yrs for SZC seriously.]

So, for every pound spent on nuclear, you get twice as much generation from RE, and 10yrs sooner. Assuming prior to large scale storage, some of the RE will be wasted (curtailed/spill), then only 80% will displace FF's. However, because there is twice as much RE generation (v's nuclear), this is equivalent to 160% of the planned nuclear. [This assumes no storage or manipulation is needed for nuclear - though Dinorwig, E7 and the 'heat Electric' campaigns of the 70's/80's might disagree.]

After 15yrs the nuclear comes on line displacing 100% of equivalent FF's, but 10yrs of RE has already displaced 1,600% (10yrs x 160%) of the nuclear equivalent, so nuclear starts its first year of generation 16yrs behind RE in terms of displaced/reduced CO2(e) emissions.

At the end of nuclear's first year of operation it has displaced 100%, whilst RE has displaced another 160%, so nuclear is now 16.6yrs behind ........ and so is the planet.

If nuclear accepts responsibility for the FF emissions during the additional build out time it takes (v's RE), then it can no longer be classed as a low carbon source of generation.

Re: SIZEWELL C

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:49 am
by Mr Gus
Thanks Mart.
That's just what the doctor statistician ordered

Another way to look at it I guess is the price of 10 years "security" bills of nuclear police ALONE has far better effect put into RE.

Re: SIZEWELL C

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:39 am
by Adokforme
Thanks for the heads up Mr G, and Mart for laying out the cost comparisons between Nuclear and RE. It does rather make the decision difficult to justify on economic grounds never mind those of sustainability. As inferred we desparately need clean energy now, not in fifteen years time after additional pollution caused by Sizewell C's, or any other such power plants construction.
Reading the article below almost makes me wonder if we aren't only assisting in propping up an ailing French Nuclear industry but it's current government as well! :shock:

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy ... 022-01-14/

Edit. Apologies A/A for missing you out on the credits! :(

Re: SIZEWELL C

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:32 am
by Mr Gus
I'll stick this here (because Fukushima is the most recent & costly Nuclear disaster we have to glean detail on)

& it is good ongoing comparison for the cost of RE (following Marts info)
Good site for relevant detail ongoing.

https://www.simplyinfo.org/?p=15370
Which apparently WAY back in 2016 cost hit in the region of $100 billion dollars, / 89.429 BILLION EURO's / £ 74.605 BILLION GBP

In 2019 this piece from Green Technica
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/16/fu ... -disaster/
(a real Dr Evil number) ..please immerse yourself

The Wikipedia page for TEPCO Fukushima plants history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima ... r_disaster
In 1967, when the plant was built, TEPCO levelled the sea coast to make it easier to bring in equipment. This put the new plant at 10 meters (33 ft) above sea level, rather than the original 30 meters (98 ft).

Now, by contrast, there are big old walls for miles of coastline of scraped & bagged (BIG) radioactive material with nowhere to go, that are a risk of being swept out to sea if / when there is another Tsunami.

Lately the "ICE WALL" has sprung a leak & caused more problems with contamination / chemical release.

Whilst we are mentioning the money we are stumping up to EDF as monies for the not yet!? rubber stamped nuclear power replacement in E.Anglia..

As per earlier in the month (Jan 2022)
Three of Germany's last six reactors to shut down
Final phase-out by the end of 2022
Dismantling to cost over $10 billion / 8,942,900,000.00 Euros / £7,460,500,00.00
Anti-nuclear consensus still strong, minister says

https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodi ... 022-01-01/

Re: SIZEWELL C

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:54 am
by Stig
I'm sure the old argument about reliable base load will come up again with the plans to move home heating off gas/oil and onto electrically powered heatpumps which might run 24hrs (plus EV charging), but we'd need to more than double our nuclear generation (~6GW) to meet even the current lowest overnight demand (~20GW). Given that a chunk of our current nuclear plants are to be shut down even before HPC is ready that will leave a big hole in the short term (decade or so) even before you consider the longer term economics, we'll have to fill that hole with something other than gas/coal.

Re: SIZEWELL C

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:31 pm
by dan_b
I do think that ultimately any discussion about the cost of nuclear misses the point that its as much a political/geopolitical/scientific status decision as it is an economic one. And in a world where Governments can always find new money for infrastructure projects that they actually want to deploy, I'm not entirely convinced by the theory that a billion spent on nuclear means a billion doesn't get spent on offshore wind.

The UK government, the UK economy, could decide and afford to do both, at the same time. In a way they have - offshore wind in particular is expanding rapidly. There could well be legitimate arguments to say it might not be possible to expand and deploy significantly much more offshore wind more quickly right now anyway due to supply chain and installation engineering capacity?

But that's not to say that it seems to take the UK government a ludicrous amount of time to make a decision about nuclear investment, and then an even more ludicrous amount of time to actually build these things. As pointed out earlier, we're going to lose almost all of the remainder of the UK nuclear fleet before Hinkley C and then Sizewell C would come on line. So we'll only have maintained a relatively low baseload as it is.

Re: SIZEWELL C

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:18 pm
by Mart
Sorry Dan, but I struggle to see how it's not the same money. We wouldn't build enough generation from nuclear, and then build RE on top, or vice versa, so the roll out of capacities has to take the other into account.

Also if we look to the advice that the NIC gave to Government nearly 4yrs ago, they were absolutely looking at the same money and the best use for it, when they recommended the Gov scale back nuclear plans from 6 powerstations to 2, and look at the falling costs of RE and storage :-

Cool down nuclear plan because renewables are better bet, ministers told
Government advisers have told ministers to back only a single new nuclear power station after Hinkley Point C in the next few years, because renewable energy sources could prove a safer investment.

The National Infrastructure Commission (NIC) said the government should cool down plans for a nuclear new build programme that envisage as many as six plants being built.

The commission, launched by George Osborne in 2015, said that a decade ago it would have been unthinkable that renewables could be affordable and play a major role in electricity generation. But the sector had undergone a “quiet revolution” as costs fell, it said.

Sir John Armitt, the NIC’s chairman, said: “They [the government] say full speed. We’re suggesting it’s not necessary to rush ahead with nuclear. Because during the next 10 years we should get a lot more certainty about just how far we can rely on renewables.”

He argued that wind and solar could deliver the same generating capacity as nuclear for the same price, and would be a better choice because there was less risk. “One thing we’ve all learnt is these big nuclear programmes can be pretty challenging, quite risky – they will be to some degree on the government’s balance sheet,” he said.
Crucially this recommendation was made in 2018 after the 2017 CfD's returned offshore wind contracts as low as £68.55/MWh (today's monies), but before the 2019 auction that resulted in contracts falling as low as £45.73/MWh.

We've also seen storage developing, and whilst intraday storage is just one example, and typically batteries, they have a learning curve (Wright's Law, the drop in cost for every subsequent doubling in production) of over 20%. So the more that is spent on them, the cheaper they get. Just yesterday we learned that two 400MW/800MWh batteries are to be deployed in Scotland and operational in ~2yrs time - just those two batteries are roughly equal to 1/4 Dinorwig in power, and 1/7th in energy.

Over the last decade+ we've seen RE taking about 3.5%pa of the UK's leccy demand, that means every two years it matches a HPC or a SZC. In fact since the original HPC agreement/CfD was announced in 2012, RE has replaced about 35% (5 HPC's) of the UK's leccy generation, displacing FF's and their emissions. HPC may be commissioned in 2027/28, so potentially by then another 17-20% shift to RE if we keep deploying new capacity at the same rate.

If we had a binary choice between coal and nuclear, I'd take nuclear without a second's hesitation, but if the choice is nuclear or RE + storage*, and the RE is cheaper and faster, then I don't know what nuclear brings to the table? It actually looks like a negative/harmful move to direct investment into nuclear.

*TBF the choice is nuclear v's RE + (RE + storage). Sorry for the brackets, but some RE will be used as it's generated, but some will need storage, and those extra costs and complications need to be included in the calculations, just like the NIC appear to be doing.


Lastly, whilst I don't think we should look too much to the USA for financial advice, given they have taken capitalism 'a tad too far', it is interesting to note that they have an ageing fleet of nuclear reactors (almost 100), but only two replacements under construction, in fact down from four, but two were cancelled mid build when they realsied that they wouldn't be economic on completion, thanks to the falling cost of RE and gas generation, and crucially RE is now undercutting the economics of new gas generation too.