camelot-forum.co.uk

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-60356432

IN PART:

Soaring energy costs are hitting businesses as hard as they're looming for households, making even diesel generators a more attractive option than buying power from the grid.

Imagine you've just bought 68 new buses, powered by electric battery. Helped by a wadge of public cash, you wire up your bus depots with chargers.

Then the price of electricity goes through the roof, and it turns out that the best business option is to fire them up with power from a diesel-fuelled generator.

It's not quite the clean, green future of public transport that we were sold last year at COP26, as big government grants went into renewing bus fleets with batteries.

But that's how energy prices are up-ending parts of the economy.

The scenario of battery buses powered, albeit indirectly, by dirty diesel has been briefly explored by the chief executive of McGill's Buses.

Ralph Roberts tweeted that the procurement team at the Inverclyde-based bus operator had run the numbers on the £624,000 increase in its energy bill.

"They are advising that we charge our zero emission buses by diesel generators," he wrote.

Three emojis followed, the latter showing an exploding head.

He subsequently clarified this was "to draw attention to the impact that the electricity price rises are about to have".

"We are NOT suggesting that we actually would use diesel to charge electric buses, except in emergencies," he added.

This story doesn’t add up for me!

I’ve heard of factories using diesel generators instead of grid power because diesel is cheaper and business users are subsidising consumers on capped contracts. However factories use power in the daytime. The busses will be (mostly) charged overnight when power is cheaper.

Also, rules on the use of red diesel are tightening up in April this year. I don't know the exact rules on using rebated fuel in a generator to charge a vehicle but I'd be very surprised if it was allowed.

Basically agriculture will be the only industry allowed to use red after April. This will make a huge difference to the economics of running a generator!

Stinsy.

It shifts the whole economics of energy & "trying to be green-er, whilst running a business" if costs go up 50% then regardless of anything the whole efficiency of cost versus emissions cutting takes a nose dive, because it closes the gap on FF, putting you back on the treadmill, spending loads on new tech only to have the rug pulled from asunder in a spiralling economy.

investment, loan, payback time, as many greener purchases are planned out.

CrofterMannie wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 12:25 pm Also, rules on the use of red diesel are tightening up in April this year. I don't know the exact rules on using rebated fuel in a generator to charge a vehicle but I'd be very surprised if it was allowed.

Basically agriculture will be the only industry allowed to use red after April. This will make a huge difference to the economics of running a generator!

You can continue to use it for home energy. It will be considerably cheaper to power your home with diesel soon if you can put up with the noise. It wouldn’t take long to pay back the generator.

Andy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 3:37 pm

CrofterMannie wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 12:25 pm Also, rules on the use of red diesel are tightening up in April this year. I don't know the exact rules on using rebated fuel in a generator to charge a vehicle but I'd be very surprised if it was allowed.

Basically agriculture will be the only industry allowed to use red after April. This will make a huge difference to the economics of running a generator!

You can continue to use it for home energy. It will be considerably cheaper to power your home with diesel soon if you can put up with the noise. It wouldn’t take long to pay back the generator.

However (I just looked it up) it is quite clear that you can only use it for "non-commercial electricity generation and heating".
So OK for use at home but not for charging a bus.

CrofterMannie wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 4:34 pm However (I just looked it up) it is quite clear that you can only use it for "non-commercial electricity generation and heating".
So OK for use at home but not for charging a bus.

Never mind that buses are part of public transport, a utility, and that tempting people onto them will be an important part of decarbonising transport - our biggest single energy use at 40%.
Instead we have the Treasury demanding its pound of flesh, further damaging any chance of "Building back better" or whatever this week's bluster is.

The Treasury have already halved the money promised to bus services, so more are going to disappear rather than becoming more user-friendly. Joined-up government: what is that? Instead the Treasury just steams on with their Thatcherite /arch-monetarist agenda, somehow being able to trump any policy, even if it was in the manifesto of the governing party.

As they are so good at sums and looking at future implications of policy I really think they should be given responsibility for our carbon budget too.
That would stop the repeated nonsense of green initiatives being squashed because "we can't afford it."
Most people who read the news would agree that "We can't afford not to do it"
I despair.
A

Whilst I'm all for as much support for public transport as possible I would draw the line at allowing an electric bus to be charged with a generator running on rebated fuel, it would surely be more efficient just to run a diesel bus.

The removal of the ability of a lot of industries to use rebated diesel is, I think, actually a good thing for the environment.

15% off the diesel used in the UK is red and often by people who have no incentive too try and reduce consumption as its is 1) relatively cheap and 2) doesn't come out of their pocket.
I remember the builders who built my house just left the telehandler running all day, why shouldn't they?
Construction, quarries & mines, oil & gas extraction all burn huge quantities of diesel without really thinking about it. This might prompt them to look at efficiencies.

Having said that in glad I'm still allowed to run red in my tractor (because I'm a hypocrite!!)

I work in Agriculture and yes red may be susidised but its still a major cost to farmers ......
They are complaining about the cost of red -cos all fuel prices are increasing ........and its a major cost factor.....
Food is still relatively cheap (look at percentage of income spent) it really is a government choice - higher costs = dearer food.
Subsidised is perhaps the wrong phrase ....... how about Not taxed as much ?
George.