UK Wind Record

[Mart]

It's not like a pipeline or a ship full of gas is it? Someone could just choose not to send gas to us, this is a windfarm connnected by cables to us alone.

I guess the owners could use telecomms to tell the turbines to shut down, but hopefully our IT spies could just over-ride that and reverse the instruction...
A

Exactly. And add in the 'use it or lose it' nature of RE generation, and denying us the purchase of leccy, loses 'them' the sale, so they'd be cutting their own throats if they got silly.

[Oldgreybeard]

Exactly. And add in the 'use it or lose it' nature of RE generation, and denying us the purchase of leccy, loses 'them' the sale, so they'd be cutting their own throats if they got silly.

Remind me again about the antics of Russia in recent months, they seem to have absolutely no problem in "cutting their own throats" (or rather pipelines) just to make a military point . . .

I know it's unlikely that countries like Denmark or Norway would ever behave like Russia, but only a decade ago we were very seriously looking at buying Russian gas, and back then no one really saw a problem in doing that, much as several European countries failed to see a future problem by being beholden to another country for much of their energy.

[AE-NMidlands]

Exactly. And add in the 'use it or lose it' nature of RE generation, and denying us the purchase of leccy, loses 'them' the sale, so they'd be cutting their own throats if they got silly.

Remind me again about the antics of Russia in recent months, they seem to have absolutely no problem in "cutting their own throats" (or rather pipelines) just to make a military point . . .

Obviously they have weighed up the benefits (to them) of a destabilised Europe vs. the loss of revenue. And may have realised that they might not get paid for much more anyway, whether it was taken or not.

And their gas stays in the ground to be sold or used whenever they feel like it. (Apart from the appalling huge flare near the Finnish border, allegedly because they either can't stop producing or can't shut the pipeline feeding it!)

[Oldgreybeard]

Obviously they have weighed up the benefits (to them) of a destabilised Europe vs. the loss of revenue. And may have realised that they might not get paid for much more anyway, whether it was taken or not.

And their gas stays in the ground to be sold or used whenever they feel like it. (Apart from the appalling huge flare near the Finnish border, allegedly because they either can't stop producing or can't shut the pipeline feeding it!)

I'm sure you're right, but I bet that none of the European countries that signed up to buy Russian gas not that long ago foresaw what is happening now. The only reason we're not in the same position as them is more by accident than design, in that getting Russian gas here was seen as being more expensive than other options at the time. A happy accident for us, but that hasn't changed the financial impact of Russia's actions for the UK.

I rather think that Russia's attempts to destabilise Europe have badly backfired. In reality it looks very much as if their actions have united Europe more firmly, and created a lot of anti-Russian sentiment.

[Mart]

Exactly. And add in the 'use it or lose it' nature of RE generation, and denying us the purchase of leccy, loses 'them' the sale, so they'd be cutting their own throats if they got silly.

Remind me again about the antics of Russia in recent months, they seem to have absolutely no problem in "cutting their own throats" (or rather pipelines) just to make a military point . . .

I know it's unlikely that countries like Denmark or Norway would ever behave like Russia, but only a decade ago we were very seriously looking at buying Russian gas, and back then no one really saw a problem in doing that, much as several European countries failed to see a future problem by being beholden to another country for much of their energy.

Hi. But gas and oil aren't the same 'use it or lose' situation. They can still store it and sell it elsewhere (like China).

My point was that when you have wind (or PV) connected to a customer, if you turn it off, then you lose that day's, week's, month's etc revenue forever.

[Yes, I appreciate that now with the climate crisis, not supplying FF's could lead to an eventual loss of revenue as we move away from them long term, and reserves stay in the ground, but hopefully you get my point.]

[Oldgreybeard]

I don't think Russian gas is being stored, though. It seems that one consequence of closing off the Nordstream pipeline, before they were partially blown up, was that the gas that would have flowed through those pipes is now just being flared off. This is something to do with the mechanics of gas wells, and how they cannot just be turned off, as if they are they tend to seal up, I believe. In order to protect the investment made in drilling, once gas is flowing it has to be kept flowing in many cases, even if that means just burning the gas of with big flares. The net result is that this gas is just lost.

[Joeboy]

I don't think Russian gas is being stored, though. It seems that one consequence of closing off the Nordstream pipeline, before they were partially blown up, was that the gas that would have flowed through those pipes is now just being flared off. This is something to do with the mechanics of gas wells, and how they cannot just be turned off, as if they are they tend to seal up, I believe. In order to protect the investment made in drilling, once gas is flowing it has to be kept flowing in many cases, even if that means just burning the gas of with big flares. The net result is that this gas is just lost.

They don't seal up but there is a bit of work involved to get them going again. My reality in the former USSR states showed that they couldn't in general find their arse with both hands. If they shut the Wells in they might not have the skillset or technology/operators to get them going again. I always abhorred seeing gas flared off regardless of its H2S content. They are not flaring off the fuel from nordstream. It will be sold where it can elsewhere and I'm sure a lot will be stored then the wells choked back before there are thoughts of shut in. To my mind it is still stored energy and not lost as per the passing breeze scenario.

[Oldgreybeard]

They don't seal up but there is a bit of work involved to get them going again. My reality in the former USSR states showed that they couldn't in general find their arse with both hands. If they shut the Wells in they might not have the skillset or technology/operators to get them going again. I always abhorred seeing gas seeing flared off regardless of its H2S content. They are not flaring off the fuel from nordstream. It will be sold where it can and I'm sure a lot will be stored before they shut in.

I'd assumed that the massive increase in the size of Russian gas flares since Nordstream closed was related, maybe it isn't. Certainly seems that Russia is burning off a great deal more gas now than it used to: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy ... 022-08-26/

I've always wondered why they couldn't just oxidise the H2S. This is what I do with our well water, as that has high levels of H2S. It oxidises very quickly, though, so is easy to get rid of.

[Joeboy]

They don't seal up but there is a bit of work involved to get them going again. My reality in the former USSR states showed that they couldn't in general find their arse with both hands. If they shut the Wells in they might not have the skillset or technology/operators to get them going again. I always abhorred seeing gas seeing flared off regardless of its H2S content. They are not flaring off the fuel from nordstream. It will be sold where it can and I'm sure a lot will be stored before they shut in.

I'd assumed that the massive increase in the size of flares since Nordstream closed was related, maybe it isn't. Certainly seems that Russia is burning off a great deal more gas now than it used to: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy ... 022-08-26/

I saw that too a good few weeks ago. As did most of Northern Europe at night. That's not the flow volume though.
To work on a well is a serious undertaking but all wells can be choked back. That just takes time. I'd expect those flares are less now than two months ago. I used to know a lot more about this stuff but changed career at 30 and went away in a different direction. Not so hands on with the wellsite.

[CrofterMannie]

Modern wells have quite sophisticated downhole control systems.
It's not my area of expertise but whenever we (in the drilling industry) need a platform to shut in a well it seems to be done quickly and easily (albeit begrudgingly due to the lost revenue).