"Kinetic Hydro"

Water turbines and anything associated
MikeNovack
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2025 9:16 pm

Re: "Kinetic Hydro"

#11

Post by MikeNovack »

Stinsy wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 3:20 pm The old fashioned overthrown wheels all had a significant drop (5-10m in all the ones I've seen) and they usually had a "millpond" that stored water over several days/weeks to be used for a few hours of milling.
Clesson Brook, the stream I live beside, was an early 19th Century industrial zone. The Clesson drops about 800' in four miles, even in drought a couple cfs (in spate, could be a couple hundred cfs). It was overhead wheels every 5-10 m drop, NO MILL PONDS (not practical amount of storage in a very narrow valley, steep to the stream). A few were of course grist mills, but most of the wheels powered gang saws turning logs into boards or drop forges beating (iron) pigs into sheet iron. Our house was built for one of those millers.

Before turbines (and in this climate where it FREEZES) these few KW overshot wheels were ideal*. They were all they could handle. Shut down with a hand/body weight brake whenicing up threw them out of balance so could chip ice off. When reaction turbines were invented starting about 1830, industry moved to the larger rivers. BTW, my town(ship) not unique. Along the South River in the neighboring town of Conway a similar industrial zone.

You want/need millponds only when the flow is inadequate to power a "run of the river" plant and the terrain suitable. Even with turbines, say on the Deerfield River, there are currently seven hydro-electric plants but ONLY the one farthest upstream in Whitingham VT has a "mill pond" (a rather substantial man made lake).

* 16' drop and 4 cfs flow would produce ~4 KW if used by an overshot wheel << tangential flow impulse turbine tipped 90 degrees -- the impulse component negligible and not efficient but the fact that the out flow far lower than the inflow (gravity) was producing most of the power.-- so the impulse component usually neglected except by rules of thumb -- the wheel speed should be about half that of the initial drop onto the wheel and the buckets curved so when water flows out in the reverse direction to the rotation but peanuts

Another example where tilting can be used is the Poncelet Wheel. That looks like an "undershot wheel" but is also a tangential impulse turbine. Not very efficient, only about 60%. BUT if the frame of reference is rotated backwards about half the drop, and the wheel speed/diameter correctly chosen, efficiency goes up to about 80% (since half now coming from gravity)
>>
There is no possibility of social justice on a dead planet except the equality of the grave.
John_S
Posts: 445
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:03 am
Location: West London

Re: "Kinetic Hydro"

#12

Post by John_S »

GarethC wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 10:19 am I know the founder well. Lovely chap and very smart. Iirc he says the biggest issue is getting permission to install. They did a trial install up in Fort William using the aluminium factory outflows.
Gareth
Do you know if there has been any recent developments. The website announced in a news letter in Spring 2023
https://kinetic-hydro.com/wp-content/up ... tter-1.pdf
and has not published any subsequent newsletters or updates.
User avatar
Stinsy
Posts: 3655
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:09 pm

Re: "Kinetic Hydro"

#13

Post by Stinsy »

John_S wrote: Wed May 14, 2025 9:16 am
GarethC wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 10:19 am I know the founder well. Lovely chap and very smart. Iirc he says the biggest issue is getting permission to install. They did a trial install up in Fort William using the aluminium factory outflows.
Gareth
Do you know if there has been any recent developments. The website announced in a news letter in Spring 2023
https://kinetic-hydro.com/wp-content/up ... tter-1.pdf
and has not published any subsequent newsletters or updates.
The key part that is missing from all of these is: "This one has been installed for [howeverlong] and has generated [howevermuch]".

Where are the case studies with real-world data?

I'd love it if this kind of thing worked. Unfortunately, these are in the category with rooftop wind turbines. It is simply impossible for them to work.
12x 340W JA Solar panels (4.08kWp)
3x 380W JA Solar panels (1.14kWp)
6x 2.4kWh Pylontech batteries (14.4kWh)
LuxPower inverter/charger

(Artist formally known as ******, well it should be obvious enough to those for whom such things are important.)
GarethC
Posts: 243
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 8:32 pm

Re: "Kinetic Hydro"

#14

Post by GarethC »

John_S wrote: Wed May 14, 2025 9:16 am
GarethC wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 10:19 am I know the founder well. Lovely chap and very smart. Iirc he says the biggest issue is getting permission to install. They did a trial install up in Fort William using the aluminium factory outflows.
Gareth
Do you know if there has been any recent developments. The website announced in a news letter in Spring 2023
https://kinetic-hydro.com/wp-content/up ... tter-1.pdf
and has not published any subsequent newsletters or updates.
Sadly, Kinetic Hydro has been wound up I think.

To be clear, I don't think the technology was ever intended to be installed in anything other than quite large, fast flowing rivers, of which there are many.

I haven't had a proper catch up with Richard, but while the aluminium smelter trial was I think a success, the practicalities of getting permission to install in rivers and other aspects were too hard I believe.
MikeNovack
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2025 9:16 pm

Re: "Kinetic Hydro"

#15

Post by MikeNovack »

GarethC wrote: Wed May 14, 2025 2:38 pm To be clear, I don't think the technology was ever intended to be installed in anything other than quite large, fast flowing rivers, of which there are many.
Well actually, not. There is an issue with stream cross section. If the flow is RELATIVELY shallow (width to depth) you require a great number if small diameter props. Most fast flowing streams/rivers are on steep, rocky gradients. If not rocky bottom, would quickly erode the bottom till not steep gradient except for an initial over fall where resistant bottom. And THERE a different sort of turbine would be more suitable.

The device type in question actually more suited to a tidal inlet location. In that application the props have to be designed to work either way. Does not require a massive barrier as other types of tidal do (boats can go through gaps). Not constant power, but dependable periods four times a day. However ideal locations not that common.
There is no possibility of social justice on a dead planet except the equality of the grave.
User avatar
AlBargey
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:41 pm

Re: "Kinetic Hydro"

#16

Post by AlBargey »

A well timed video for this thread:



The original thread topic just reminds me of our electric outboard that can also charge the battery, not that we had a practical way of doing that on a 3.3m SIB, on a slow moving tidal river, but it does make the boat slow down more quickly when regen is turned on! Probably more practical get something dual use and just to chuck an electric outboard in a fast flowing river than buy a turbine only.

https://www.epropulsion.com/navy/
38m Barge, Solar (10.6 kWp), 26 kWh of LFP, 50kWh Akvaterm Thermal Store (750l)
Victron Quattro 8 kVA, CerboGX, 3,500L STP, 57kVa Perkins
Our live data: https://vrm.victronenergy.com/installat ... e/c76c4bf6
MikeNovack
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2025 9:16 pm

Re: "Kinetic Hydro"

#17

Post by MikeNovack »

Because we have been caretakers on the trail, I have no problem picturing an application for the concept. Especially at very small scale. Far off grid, solar not possible, and only a couple of watts needed.

For example, were there a rill by the cabin. Water coming between a pir of rocks might have enough speed to make this sort of device s reasonable choice to keep a power brick charged (say 100 Wh like my 20,000 mah one). In other words, enough to recharge several phones. Solar, of course, of practical as not allowed to cut an opening in the canopy in National Park/Forest. At the cabin where we did most of our caretaking, could have put panels on a raft out on the pond, but not on the cabin roof. That's how/why we got into caretaking there. Penny finally found out what was causing her mysterious health problems, lupus, an auto-immune which can mimic anything.So it became "keep out of the sun". Can't go summer hiking all bundled up, but at the cabin she could still be "on the trail".
There is no possibility of social justice on a dead planet except the equality of the grave.
Post Reply