Ecotricity jumps the shark?

[Mart]

Is beef consumption the problem or the industrialised production of beef to maintain the fast food market. It’s not just beef, though, we’re probably over producing chicken and pork to a similar extent.

Before we look at alternative sources of protein to, effectively, maintain the fast food industry, shouldn’t we have a complete rethink about the place of ‘fast food’ in society given the harm and societal costs it creates ?

Very true. But another 'benefit' of insect produced protein is its ability to displace 'meat' in pet foods, so that might help. But then I suppose the question is, what quality is the meat going into pet foods, and is it the only market for such stuff?

[Mr Gus]

Mart: The "looks like meat" burgers are in all honesty delicious (we bought the frozen "Beyond Burger" 12 pack, all 3 of us thought they were as good as regular fecent quality burgers ..the 80%+ meat versions, I myself thought they were better.

I'm not vegan I just enjoy good food, this was.
My recent uptake of Lentils (yup as a good breakfast too) in addition to my love of fish (esp mackerel & haddock family species) a good Saag Paneer (veg cheese block curry) ..decent offerings of veggie supermarket offerings, i'm getting there through taste alone, less meat by the month, no effort involved.

A recent offering was from BM foods / heron (close sell by dates version of Iceland) which often has some surprising veggie things in their freezer section, I tried a few packs of a pea, edamame bean & kale burgers 2 for 89p? which even done in the oven were moist flavour packed with a good firm crust on top.

Travel (yes carbon footprint) from early years, & not copping out with "nuggets" opens up eyes, therefore in the absence of A. parenting & B, covid travel (this winter through to may= july 2022) schools & govt really need to up their school dinners game & "do a france"

Daughter (now upper 6th) used to go in early (7 am) set up dining hall chairs & get a bacon butty gratis & a hot chocolate, sit & study, since covid, no breakfasts, reduced lunch options (mostly cack) ..we are actually sliding further into fast food than we think (all those Fast Food variants by definition)

IF those ICE vehicles queuing for a cack burger were "around" a school / traffic lights there would be serious concern ..why is there not about the congestion & idling emissions which happen anyway on "retail parks" !?

Fast food is too easy to grab, can you imagine if a council warden "happened" upon a line of idling cars waiting for a burger, slapped a fine on each (fines due to body cam footage & number plate capture) ..they'd be dismissed on the grounds of attacking "local business" by a council.

Time to change all that.

PS, lack of school canteen variety / access has increased out of school footfall to Dominoes, & delivery by deliveroo et al, to school gates FFS.

Change the menu & the mindset.

I think dale has lost the plot though & elsewhere his green company seems to have stagnated dangerously to the point of wider ridicule, he seems more intent these past 5 years of buying a football team & making it vegetarian whilst other aspects are dangerously run down.

[Mart]

Cheers Gus, I've been wondering about the 'beyond' products, so that'll push me to give them a try. Is it Burger King that have seen a lot of success selling beyond meat Whoppers?

As I've said, have to admit to my own hypocrisy regarding beef products, we have cut down, and make every effort now to only purchase UK, sustainable beef products as, as I mentioned earlier, I understand the UK to have a much better balance regarding sustainability.

Regarding Ecotricity and the green gas, don't worry, I haven't gone mad, I'm not saying it will work, and the 5yr stagnation really doesn't auger well for the whole idea - I'm just saying the idea, if (big IF) it's viable, will help.

I do think that all ideas to reduce FF gas consumption seem to pivot on costs, be they insulation programmes, heatpumps, biomethane, carbon taxes etc.. Will the public accept higher prices, since we've gotten used to cheap(ish) space heating in the UK?

And just to be clear, I've always tried to differentiate between higher energy prices, and higher costs. For instance a 10% increase in leccy might encourage a household to install LED lamps, and reduce their consumption by 10%.

I've mentioned this idea before, and of course it won't ever happen, but I'd like to see VAT on energy bills increased to 20%, but the 15% additional revenue be ring fenced by the Gov and spent on insulation programmes, efficiency programmes, low energy/low carbon technology roll outs (like heatpumps), and of course support for those in energy poverty - in fact support for those in energy poverty hopefully goes hand in hand with insulation and efficiency programs.

Don't worry, I expect everyone to shout at me for the VAT idea, but personally I think our energy bills, with good insulation, energy efficiency technology, heat pumps, and PV, allow us room to pay a bit more on our bills. ['us' meaning my household, not everyone else on the forum necessarily.]

[Paul_F]

The reason Ecotricity's idea interests me so much, is because I can't see the UK moving away from gas space heating fast enough, so the ability to produce some of the methane in a carbon neutral manner, whilst also benefitting the soil, seems like a win win.

I assume, yes just an assumption, that the technology is sound, since we are already using a lot of anaerobic digestion to produce methane currently, though that often gets burnt ion site for generation. And also, presumably, the idea can be scaled up rapidly. But the issue still remains, at what price, since it will need to sit within the cost of nat-gas + carbon tax to be viable, or require subsidies from the Gov. The fact that they are now building one, not 100's, does not fill me with hope.

Thing is, home heating is right down the bottom of the list of things we should be using methane for, and it's very questionable whether this is a good way of using the available land even if we did want to make methane. For instance, biogas at source is ~50% CO₂. If we put PV on the pasture instead, we would capture ~10x more energy per acre which could be turned to hydrogen and used to convert a pretty pure stream of CO₂ to methane. The chemistry for this has been around for ages - water/gas shift reaction plus Fischer-Tropsch.
I would also question the soil benefits - if they basically need grass to feed the process, then they're going to logically want to convert pasture (which will have at least some diversity of species in there) to rye-grass monoculture. That may not be what they're saying, but would be the logical outcome of their proposal if widely adopted.

I understand that outdoor-reared grass-fed beef is carbon-negative. Lots of misinformation (from all sides) in this space.
I cannot imagine artificial meat will be the solution to any problem.

A huge amount depends on how it's reared - because cattle are ruminants there's always going to be a lot of methane production, so to be carbon-negative they need to be continually adding carbon to the soil.
That's possible but unusual - the only method I've seen that is convincing is to put a very high stocking density into a field with a cover crop in it for a few days within a no-till system. They eat some of the crop but trample much more of it down, where it kills the cover crop off ready for whatever you're going to plant next. Worms, etc. then pull the cover crop down and add a lot of the carbon in it to the soil, sequestering it - although to be beneficial in the long term this really needs to be done on previously degraded soil since there's going to be a limit on how much carbon the soil can hold.
The stereotypical UK system of cows on permanent pasture is never going to be carbon-negative - ancient grassland will already be in carbon equilibrium, so they won't be adding even more to offset the methane.

Lab-grown "meat" is interesting for fast food where people don't care too much about what they're eating. I can't see it being called meat for all that long though - some sort of trade name will be adopted and it'll just become another protein source like Quorn, Tofu, etc.

Is beef consumption the problem or the industrialised production of beef to maintain the fast food market. It’s not just beef, though, we’re probably over producing chicken and pork to a similar extent.

Cows and sheep are ruminants, so produce a lot of methane. They also tend to be farmed outdoors - better for welfare, but more exposed to weather, etc. so need more food in to produce a given amount of food out.
Pork and particularly chicken is better suited to intensive farming, doesn't produce methane and has a better ratio of energy in -> energy out. It's worth noting that there is a trade-off with welfare here - the lowest CO₂ will come from low welfare situations with animals packed densely into barns.

Before we look at alternative sources of protein to, effectively, maintain the fast food industry, shouldn’t we have a complete rethink about the place of ‘fast food’ in society given the harm and societal costs it creates ?

That's not a new suggestion - if I remember correctly there was something of a moral panic in Victorian times about poor people spending all their food money in pie shops rather than cooking for themselves. Compared to the horror show that was food at the time, modern fast food is vastly healthier.
Ultimately the most likely way for it to improve is simply to figure out ways of making healthy food that people want to eat available on fast-food terms. That's gradually happening IMHO, but will take a while.

[Bugtownboy]

In principle, I agree with you re the VAT, Mart. I think energy costs are too low - whether VAT is the right vehicle to raise the cost, dunno.

Trouble is, and it’s the same as the other thread re meat/food, we just don’t value energy enough.

We’re quite happy to p*** it up the wall without a thought.

I know cost doesn’t always equate to value, but our wasteful behaviour with energy has to change - and I’m sorry to include everyone in the ‘we’.

[Mr Gus]

Understood, over our way a firm absorbed by a big faceless company is trying to install a big burn for power "waste" facility ..it stinks here already from london dumped rat carcasses & london waste, now will involve "hospital waste" (inc body parts) ..suffice to say Dales ide is wackold but better, but still flawed as a holed ship is to floatation.

No idea what BK are selling (I avoid them pricey greasy high street stinking up grot) ..we grabbed ours via a costco deal (if you are a member & have one nearby) to try ..I have oven baked, sous vide-ed them ..finished for 30 seconds a side in a butter caramelisation fry pan ..again fine.

NB I cook 2 per bag, they can smell umame funk raw if left to defrost, that pungency go's when cooked, it is not a sign of it going off.
The mouthfeel (poncey but accurate terminology) is excellent.

When I first tried them we ran them alongside decent real burgers, hard to tell on the same tray (oven baked) but the taste as stated, we found better.
I had reservation as to the ingredients (sourcing etc) there is more on the site than the packet, I emailed in the end & was very happy at the personable & informative reply re the likes of oils used.

Go for it! ..they become an easy option once you've made the leap ..just like EV's

[Mr Gus]

LOCAL councils need to get an effing grip & let us know how climate mitigation change locally can be eased into (rules easing & downright encouragement) ..all this leads to more shored up energy "walls" ..but nothing is happening & we are experiencing a veritable sh1tstorm energy wise.

Too much reliance on snippets from london govt wallahs that hinders individuals.
HS2 screwing over other chains of supply is a grand example.

In terms of meat this week, it was last night, wife went to pick up kid from wetherspoons on return from a hospital case, £4.50 10oz rump steak & chips / baked spud. ..they stayed, ate & bought one back for me.

NB the dog now eats more actual "meat" than me.

[Mart]

Thing is, home heating is right down the bottom of the list of things we should be using methane for, and it's very questionable whether this is a good way of using the available land even if we did want to make methane. For instance, biogas at source is ~50% CO₂. If we put PV on the pasture instead, we would capture ~10x more energy per acre which could be turned to hydrogen and used to convert a pretty pure stream of CO₂ to methane. The chemistry for this has been around for ages - water/gas shift reaction plus Fischer-Tropsch.
I would also question the soil benefits - if they basically need grass to feed the process, then they're going to logically want to convert pasture (which will have at least some diversity of species in there) to rye-grass monoculture. That may not be what they're saying, but would be the logical outcome of their proposal if widely adopted.

Yes, I agree about the idea of burning methane for space heating. Perhaps I should have explained better, I'm not trying to promote GCH, I'm simply accepting that it exists, and moving away from it will take many decades. There is also the issue of storage if we go completely over to leccy based heating 'too' quickly.

So I'm approaching this not from the side of 'pro-gas', but from an anti FF gas perspective, of how can we reduce FF consumption asap, and perhaps this could be another tool in the toolbox. Or not, but the modularity of it, would seem to suggest that trying it out, is at least worth a go on a small scale before dismissing it completely.

[Countrypaul]

Do any anaerobic digesters use seaweed? It strikes me that seaweed could be used to provide a significant amount of biomass (but farming it would require treating with more respect to avoid the problems we have elsewhere) without significantly affecting current farmland. Since Seaweed contains several useful plant nutrients, including nitrogen, potassium, phosphate and magnesium the fertiliser from the digester could be more beneficial to the soil than simply putting back what was harvested in he first place.

[Paul_F]

Yes, I agree about the idea of burning methane for space heating. Perhaps I should have explained better, I'm not trying to promote GCH, I'm simply accepting that it exists, and moving away from it will take many decades. There is also the issue of storage if we go completely over to leccy based heating 'too' quickly.

One of the real problems I have with this is it's partnering with a generally pro-fossil fuel newspaper to "save our gas boilers" - explicitly promoting the use of methane for space heating and in reality fossil methane since the likelihood of this being able to be scaled up as claimed is virtually zero.

So I'm approaching this not from the side of 'pro-gas', but from an anti FF gas perspective, of how can we reduce FF consumption asap, and perhaps this could be another tool in the toolbox. Or not, but the modularity of it, would seem to suggest that trying it out, is at least worth a go on a small scale before dismissing it completely.

Thing is, everything in it is already done - feeding biogas from anaerobic digestion into the grid, growing grass, digesting grass, etc. We know the output is about 10% of that from PV on the same land area, with all the same problems of output being mostly in the summer (thus poor plant utilisation, etc.). However you look at this, it's at least 3x worse than Hydrogen boilers, themselves a pretty terrible idea. So if we're desperate to keep burning stuff in boxes on a wall then it's the wrong answer, and if we aren't then it's even more the wrong answer.