Why JCB thinks that hydrogen is the best alternative to diesel for heavy machinery.

[spread-tee]

Battery electric. It already exists, it's a known technology and requires no new infrastructure. Its round-trip efficiency is 3x orders of magnitude better than Hydrogen fuel cells, produces no tailpipe emissions and, if the plant owner wishes, they can generate their own fuel on-site.

Because they're run by an idiot?

Is there a viable alternative in the nearish future though? Chris Goodall plumps for loads of wind and PV generating Hydrogen for storage and running hard to electrify applications as a good option, not least because it can use a lot of the existing infrastructure and not require a huge change in everyday lifestyle.

spear teed

I suppose so, but are batteries really up to replacing a couple hundred kW engine bashing away in a big digger all day, or a long distance large truck?
If it can be done that's great but there are some hard to electrify situations that may benefit from a Hydrogen power source.
Provided of course it is green from wind and/or PV

Desp

[dan_b]

JCB thought so back in 2019,


This quarry truck is full BEV
https://www.popularmechanics.com/techno ... ump-truck/

Scania has launched a line of full BEV HGVs
https://theenergyst.com/scania-launches ... ne-charge/

[Oliver90owner]

Dan,

JCB are obviously aware of both electric and ICE versions of small and large excavators. The one on fully charged is a toy compared to the really big ones and is unlikely to be working flat out every day (and possibly more than a single shift). They are mainly alternatives to shovels and buckets

The quarry dumper is much akin to the gravity ropeway post - OK for shifting material downhill!

The HGV appears to have a maximum range of 150 miles - and that is most certainly not when fully laden, reading the specifications (unless going downhill!).

Many drag-line type excavators are already electrically operated - particularly the bigger examples in quarries.

Hydrogen is a viable and acceptable alternative to diesel, but only if operated on ‘green’ hydrogen. I suspect that the hydrogen engine developed by JCB will not be any greener than a directly fossil fuelled vehicle at this time, or for some time to come.

[Mr Gus]

Oliver is right, the big mine dumper relies on gravity on the downward ride for regen to get its figures, whereas the load on one of those beasts is extreme.

As far as EV-HGV is concerned lets give it another 12 months by which time Tesla truck will have some insight as to progress
I guess, that uk could in principle, as part of its carbon reduction policy with moveable goal posts insist Hydrogen is via green production end to end.
Perhaps the uk as part of energy security will actually invest in hydrogen production facility within the uk, long shot, but times are changing.

If we simply let it go to the Saudis & similar countries then we won't be any better off in terms of Oil conflict excuses for war because supply & storage will be regionally unstable as it is now.

Whichever way it go's politicians will ensure it is seedy & manilla in colour though.

[dan_b]

Mass produced global oil-scale green hydrogen will never exist.
Mass produced global scale blue hydrogen will likely never exist as CCS is too expensive.
Therefore commercial hydrogen will continue to be a fossil fuel, and a very inefficient, leaky and dangerous one.

Which means we've made no net change at all.

[spread-tee]

But surely Hydrogen doesn't need to scale to present oil levels as the vast majority of vehicles could be electric, leaving just the difficult applications for H2. I'm with you regarding Blue H2, it's just greenwash, but as Chris Goodall in his book proposes, a twenty fold increase in wind and PV would supply all our electric needs for all bar about 30 days a year. Then the huge spare capacity most of the time can be stored as H2 and replace a lot of methane in the grid, provide for steel, cement and regular heating systems, and those trucks and diggers etc.

Desp

[Mr Gus]

Mass produced global oil-scale green hydrogen will never exist.
Mass produced global scale blue hydrogen will likely never exist as CCS is too expensive.
Therefore commercial hydrogen will continue to be a fossil fuel, and a very inefficient, leaky and dangerous one.

You don't have to poke around to read that sort of rhetoric concerning EV back in 1997, 2007, 2017 ..only now have we breached the neer-sayers teflon
suits of armour.

It will be late, but it will get there there's lots of incubator investment in renewables now that coal & oil is not in favour for its environmental damage war & pollution we now experience, & in decline, nor a good responsible portfolio investment, we will have p****d in the wind a lot of opportunity to put the brake on / adapt to severe climate change.

Hydrogen will be on mop up duty, ok if it doesn't add more problems.
TBH i'd much prefer Hydrogen in the mix produced cleanly to more Nuclear.

https://www.ga.gov.au/scientific-topics ... #heading-3
I can see Australia kicking a big facility into action to offset losses from coal production & export... cheap plentiful solar from chinese glut of panels taxed heavily elsewhere, access to Asian marketplace & home grown.

Oh yeah, & Australia isn't at risk of kicking off into a tribal / terrorist war that necessitates world powers gun ships et al for 20+ years.
The return on investment based on regional stability alone will get investment from all over, they've got the water, the solar, the 1st world skill set, it "may" even result in better grazing & land productivity by way of pumped irrigation (if they don't dump the by-product that exists currently but is seen as solved in latest de-sal membrane technique)

[spread-tee]

JCB thought so back in 2019,


This quarry truck is full BEV
https://www.popularmechanics.com/techno ... ump-truck/

Scania has launched a line of full BEV HGVs
https://theenergyst.com/scania-launches ... ne-charge/

That diddly little thing will do fine potting up your Geraniums but it wont do much work on site, and likewise that Scanny will be great for local work, but many of them will have a 400kW motor pounding the motorways for 8 hours plus a day, not dependant on payloads. Given though that battery tech will improve in time it could be just 5 or 10% of motors that would need some kind of ICE, maybe we could live with that?

Spread

[dan_b]

Those were 3 examples I found after 5 seconds of Googling. I'm sure there are more.
But the JCB example was specifically to highlight their own two-facedness on the subject.

[Mr Gus]

2-faced may be a bit harsh?

The fact that a front garden scraper goes from ICE to EV is a major changer for the machine hire business with less overall noise, localised fumes etc etc, also adding confidence to the hire-ee in terms of operation (if they don't tip it off the trailer unloading which was possible with a jerky clutch & being unfamiliar with a track vehicle) in terms of operation & maintainence.

Back yard 3 pin plug / site inverter ..simple