camelot-forum.co.uk

Hi all,

I have already posted in a few threads, but thought I had better introduce myself.

We started on our renewable energy journey in 2015 when we bought our first house. We always knew we wanted solar panels on our house so had budgeted for this but as FIT rates were going to drop in the January of 2016 (and we did not get the keys to our house until mid-December 2015) it was a rush to get it all done quickly and registered.

At the time I knew I wanted the maximum possible on the roof (which was 15 LG panels at about 310W each.... the best we could get at the time) and so we managed to get 5KW hybrid inverter with the scope for future battery storage and received sign off from Western Power for the export. We have enjoyed our slow returns and using the energy we made - although we are heavy users and even with the solar panels were above the average home usage wise. Batteries were outside our scope both financially and space wise initially plus the technology did not seem very mature at the time (in my opinion).

Since then we have worked on the house upgrading insulation and other bits and pieces with an eye for other renewable options.

In 2018 I looked into ASHP through RHI - but was not convinced the market (not the technology) was mature enough here in terms of getting good units and after care support. Plus with a COP of 4 and electricity being 4x more expensive than gas it seemed that we would not really gain anything apart from the RHI payments (plus possibly a lot of Agro). So we shelved that idea and focused on making the central heating system as efficient as possible (using TADO and individually controlled TRVs) - we have found this works well for what it is.

Most appliances have been replaced during this time always with the most efficient we could afford at the time.

The main thing we have not done so far is anything with the structure of the property as we have had some plans for extensions for a while - which almost happened a couple of years ago - but we were given the opportunity to purchase the adjoining house (we are semi-detached) and this seemed like too good an opportunity to miss .... so house modifications have been off the agenda for a little while.

During the next few years I chased the lowest price energies with hopefully the least hassle from the companies (in terms of customer care) - but I was not very successful to be honest (3 of my suppliers went bust and I had the joy of SOLAR 3 times). The last one being The People's Energy in September 2021 - so currently stuck on a standard tariff with the price cap

Fast forward to Feb 2022 when I ordered 4 pylontech US3000C as things seemed to be around the right price and the impending energy crisis (which I know started much earlier - but for the masses this was about when it was starting to hit). I am still waiting on my final pylontech battery to arrive but with all of the hassles and costs I am committed to try and reduce reliance as far as possible on the grid and gas.

Aside from the Renewable energy journey - I have been a fan of reasonable self-sufficiency (i.e. not doing without .... just trying to produce what we reasonably can ourselves). So through this we have a couple of allotment plots, fruit trees, growing capacity at home and I am a bee keeper too.
But I also apply this to most things we do .... I am a fan of trying to do things myself where possible so then I both know and understand it, but I can also make sure it is done properly and to my standard - obvious exception to this being areas I am not legally allowed to do (like gas appliances etc.)

So to the future.

Since joining the forum - many more possibilities have been opened up to me and I now have a list of "mini projects" I want to do .... some are quick and easy - others will take time to do.

• My wife and I have decided to invest in Ripple - which I had never heard of until researching it after seeing it in a few forum signatures.

• I would like to upgrade our PV to Battery charge capacity from the 50A I have now to 100A so that I can make use of the maximum PV generation

• I would like to install a solar diverter for any excess to go to two different places - my hot water tank and also a cheap inflatable hot-tub the kids use

• In a few years I would like to replace the garage roof with a pitched roof and at the same time install around 5KW of panels - my estimate of what I hope is possible on there

In addition on the house:

• On one of the extensions (to the front of the house) I am hoping to install a solar thermal system and at the same time replace all windows and doors (which are probably 20 years old) as well as external insulation to two sides of the house.

From reading other people's journeys I am now also interested in the storage heaters and time shifted electricity use with more battery storage.

The final area would be the car .... we currently drive around in an old Kia Sedona which is super inefficient .... however given we only do about 2000 miles a year at the moment I am not convinced of the economics of changing it at the moment. I think this will be something that happens when the car dies and/or fuel becomes a real big issue. My main reluctance here is given the small use, what are the environmental costs for producing a replacement car (i.e. will there be more emissions from producing another car as opposed to the continuing emissions from low use of a dirty diesel). This is only my current thoughts on our own circumstances and as other projects get completed and the desire for one of these BEVs grows that might well change!

So anyway - if you have made it this far well done for reading the essay! Whilst the inverter really annoyed me when trying to install the batteries - it has lead me to find this forum which is definitely the silver lining!

Jon

Hello Jon

Why Solar Thermal. ?

Leaks over time.( Plaster board in the house looks very different )
Circulation pumps fail. ( Costs / fitting new pumps. )
Circulation pump electricity costs.
Pipework Insulation fails.
If what your heating gets to hot you have to use the energy in another system. ( more pumps / controls to go wrong. )
If the snow comes you have to stop anything from freezing. ( Heat up with electric use. )

Use the space for extra. P.V. Panels. Fit and forget.

They can be wired into. Existing grid systems. Or battery systems to increase power.
With just swapping wires about the power can be used in multiple places / different play projects.

My solar thermal came off the roof a few weeks ago.

Replaced with P.V. Panels. Wired to one large Andrews water cylinder sitting at 90 Deg. C.
This one feeds the existing Andrews cylinder which is heated from various P.V. / wind systems.

By just swapping wires I can use the power any where.

ALAN/ALAN D wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:39 am Hello Jon

Why Solar Thermal. ?

Leaks over time.( Plaster board in the house looks very different )
Circulation pumps fail. ( Costs / fitting new pumps. )
Circulation pump electricity costs.
Pipework Insulation fails.
If what your heating gets to hot you have to use the energy in another system. ( more pumps / controls to go wrong. )
If the snow comes you have to stop anything from freezing. ( Heat up with electric use. )

Use the space for extra. P.V. Panels. Fit and forget.

They can be wired into. Existing grid systems. Or battery systems to increase power.
With just swapping wires about the power can be used in multiple places / different play projects.

My solar thermal came off the roof a few weeks ago.

Replaced with P.V. Panels. Wired to one large Andrews water cylinder sitting at 90 Deg. C.
This one feeds the existing Andrews cylinder which is heated from various P.V. / wind systems.

By just swapping wires I can use the power any where.

My thinking on this might be out of date .....

My father has a solar thermal setup and manages to get all the hot water and heating needs for around 7 to 8 months of the year in Cumbria ... so I have always wanted something similar to do this and not really considered electrical heating apart from to use up surplus power.

When I started thinking about it RHI was a possibility so I guess this was one of the main reasons for this decision initially and I have not really changed it much since - even though RHI has gone now.

So your questions and thoughts are very welcome - Having had both systems and dealt with the issues .... as you say PV might be the best way to go.

I was under the impression (rightly or wrongly) that solar thermal would yield more heating energy for the amount of space it took up - as the extension area I am intending to use is not particularly big.

However - as you say the ease of PV given the existing stuff I already have might be the best way to go

+1 for the Solar Thermal being a bad idea. Sure it "works" as in you get lots of DHW when the sun shines, but fluids ALWAYS leak eventually and moving parts such as pumps ALWAYS fail. PV is more reliable, less complicated, less expensive, and can be put to more uses.

If I were you here is what I'd do:
- Solar Diverter for DHW/Hot Tub. I'd go for an Eddi.
- More Batteries.
- PV on extension directly charging batteries via charge-controller.
- PV on garage directly charging batteries via charge-controller.

Do you see a BEV in your future? If so A Zappi can work with the aforementioned Eddi and divert PV-generated electric into your car.

Stinsy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:41 pm +1 for the Solar Thermal being a bad idea. Sure it "works" as in you get lots of DHW when the sun shines, but fluids ALWAYS leak eventually and moving parts such as pumps ALWAYS fail. PV is more reliable, less complicated, less expensive, and can be put to more uses.

If I were you here is what I'd do:
- Solar Diverter for DHW/Hot Tub. I'd go for an Eddi.
- More Batteries.
- PV on extension directly charging batteries via charge-controller.
- PV on garage directly charging batteries via charge-controller.

Do you see a BEV in your future? If so A Zappi can work with the aforementioned Eddi and divert PV-generated electric into your car.

Thanks for the input - I think what both you and Alan have said makes perfect sense.

I need to get my head around how to do the batteries so that they can charge from potentially 4 sources (Main PV, Extension PV, Garage PV and mains - if I move to a tariff that allows low rates at a particular point).

Honestly, I'd love a BEV but the reality is that it wouldn't do many miles which makes it a bit pointless at the moment. I do see one in the future but realistically I would say at least 5 to 10 years away (and after everything else). But plans can always change.

cojmh wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:06 pm
I need to get my head around how to do the batteries so that they can charge from potentially 4 sources (Main PV, Extension PV, Garage PV and mains - if I move to a tariff that allows low rates at a particular point).

cojmh, welcome and for that info, I guarantee you have certainly found the right forum !

I am going to disagree with the pv enthusiasts. My solar thermal went in easily and has never given any trouble at all (at all!)

I believe that conventional wet GCH systems need new pumps occasionally because of the black iron salt (hydroxide?) which comes from corrosion of the steel radiators - even if you think you have the water treated with corrosion inhibitor. This particulate is what erodes away the fins of the pump and stops it having any effect. At one time I had a boss who was previously a corrosion chemist and he told the story of how he challenged a plumber after his system had lost its effectiveness, only to find black filth circulating when he investigated - and the pump impeller (the remains of which were still in the lab workshop 15 years later) worn flat!

My solar primary circuit is copper pipes, copper coil in the cyclinder, copper manifold - and maybe a little bit of iron in the pump. 25% glycol and corrosion inhibitor on set-up if I remember correctly. I don't think it is vulnerable, but I shall have a think now about how I can get a sample out.

(By the way, my parents had small-bore gas central heating fitted in about the mid-1960s, supposedly with copper pipe. As a curious idle boy I asked dad how come some off-cuts showed a rusty ring around the ends... It turned out that there was a shortage of copper, so steel tube with a copper external coating had been fitted!
I saw some advice (probably on a pressure flushing advert) about investigating the presence of iron-rich sludge in cental heating pipes by seeing if a magnet would stick to a heating pipe: not in that house!)
A

nowty wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:15 pm

cojmh wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:06 pm
I need to get my head around how to do the batteries so that they can charge from potentially 4 sources (Main PV, Extension PV, Garage PV and mains - if I move to a tariff that allows low rates at a particular point).

cojmh, welcome and for that info, I guarantee you have certainly found the right forum !

Thank you .... I will be reading as much as I can over the next few days to figure out what I need to do in general .....

If I upgrade my inverter and at the same time increase the size of the system (I am thinking about panels on the front extension) what if anything would I need to tell the DNO and would this potentially jeopardise my current FIT arrangement?

AE-NMidlands wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:30 pm I am going to disagree with the pv enthusiasts. My solar thermal went in easily and has never given any trouble at all (at all!)

I believe that conventional wet GCH systems need new pumps occasionally because of the black iron salt (hydroxide?) which comes from corrosion of the steel radiators - even if you think you have the water treated with corrosion inhibitor. This particulate is what erodes away the fins of the pump and stops it having any effect. At one time I had a boss who was previously a corrosion chemist and he told the story of how he challenged a plumber after his system had lost its effectiveness, only to find black filth circulating when he investigated - and the pump impeller (the remains of which were still in the lab workshop 15 years later) worn flat!

My solar primary circuit is copper pipes, copper coil in the cyclinder, copper manifold - and maybe a little bit of iron in the pump. 25% glycol and corrosion inhibitor on set-up if I remember correctly. I don't think it is vulnerable, but I shall have a think now about how I can get a sample out.

(By the way, my parents had small-bore gas central heating fitted in about the mid-1960s, supposedly with copper pipe. As a curious idle boy I asked dad how come some off-cuts showed a rusty ring around the ends... It turned out that there was a shortage of copper, so steel tube with a copper external coating had been fitted!
I saw some advice (probably on a pressure flushing advert) about investigating the presence of iron-rich sludge in cental heating pipes by seeing if a magnet would stick to a heating pipe: not in that house!)
A

If you don't mind me asking .... how long have you had your system and I presume it works in tandem with a Gas central heating system too? Is it a case of a hot water tank that has two copper coils in it (one for the gas central heating and one for the solar thermal setup)?

With respect to the failure of the pump .... I am imagining that the other posters mean that as the pump on the system will be electro-mechanical and at some point it will wear out and fail even if it is not affected by the glycol solution .... but I have no direct experience of this other than my dad's set up and I know that during the summer he has to vent off hot water which is an energy loss in the grand scheme of things.

I need to do more reading to figure it all out I think

The system is about 15 years old, and it does have a twin-coil cylinder, although we bought it so long ago that the bottom coil is just like the top one. I think nowadays twin-coil cylinders have the bottom one split into 4 parallel tubes to increase the heat transfer. The gas boiler heats the top coil when or if needed (normal cylinder stat near the bottom of the cylinder coil.) It often doesn't cut in for weeks on end in the summer.

There is an over-heat sensor near the top of the cylinder (1/3 of the way down the top boiler-fed coil.) It has only ever run 8 hours in anger (one time when we were away on holiday) and if needed the controller turns on the central heating (water circuit) pump but isolates the boiler power supply. Heat therefore is taken to the boiler, which works "backwards" and hot air convects up the flue. Some people have a motorised valve to open a heat-dump radiator but my experience is that motorised valves are the one thing that dies on our system. The last thing you want is for it not to work the one day the tank is getting near boiling...

I have put a by-passable thermostatic mixing valve on the bathroom taps for when the grandchildren are here in the summer, as between the equinoxes a day of full sun but little draw-off gets the water dangerously hot. I could set the upper temperature limit lower, but it would mean paying for electricity to throw away heat!
A