dan_b wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:48 am
As mentioned, that means getting frequency stabilisation services from elsewhere rather than gas or coal-powered "spinning reserve".
Couldn't that be done by big 3ph induction motors direct coupled with massive flywheels?
I thought that was what Ken meant by
synchronized generators which are big machines spinning at grid frequency but not using energy except to overcome minimal friction.
In the Manchester science museum I remember seeing a big steam generating set where the coils were part of the flywheel, rather than it being a steam engine with a flywheel driving a separate generator. I suppose it is obvious really. The Victorians didn't miss a trick, did they?
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I cannot cite a source but a mate who was squadron leader in the RAF regiment guarding a radar facility said that it was backed up by a huge flywheel constantly running as the pulses the radar took from the supply were dimming the lights in a nearby town without it.
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openspaceman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:45 am
I cannot cite a source but a mate who was squadron leader in the RAF regiment guarding a radar facility said that it was backed up by a huge flywheel constantly running as the pulses the radar took from the supply were dimming the lights in a nearby town without it.
A flywheel driven rotary UPS is used for applications requiring ride-through of short duration power system outages, voltage dips, etc. The flywheel driven rotary UPS typically does not include batteries, and support times are usually on the order of a few seconds to a few minutes. The use of a generator driven rotary UPS can provide extended power for an indefinite power outage and also supply air-conditioning and lighting loads. Data processing equipment rooms will typically overheat within a 15- to 30-minute period if the ventilation system is not working, making the generator set a near necessity for outages in excess of this time. Analysis of battery cost will often justify a generator set at lower cost than choosing a long battery support time with an accompanying restriction of eventually implementing an orderly critical load shutdown. A battery support time of as little as a few minutes may be specified with generator set backup; however, longer support times in the range of 15 minutes are more typical.
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openspaceman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:45 am
I cannot cite a source but a mate who was squadron leader in the RAF regiment guarding a radar facility said that it was backed up by a huge flywheel constantly running as the pulses the radar took from the supply were dimming the lights in a nearby town without it.
A flywheel driven rotary UPS is used for applications requiring ride-through of short duration power system outages, voltage dips, etc. The flywheel driven rotary UPS typically does not include batteries, and support times are usually on the order of a few seconds to a few minutes. The use of a generator driven rotary UPS can provide extended power for an indefinite power outage and also supply air-conditioning and lighting loads. Data processing equipment rooms will typically overheat within a 15- to 30-minute period if the ventilation system is not working, making the generator set a near necessity for outages in excess of this time. Analysis of battery cost will often justify a generator set at lower cost than choosing a long battery support time with an accompanying restriction of eventually implementing an orderly critical load shutdown. A battery support time of as little as a few minutes may be specified with generator set backup; however, longer support times in the range of 15 minutes are more typical.
I have a friend that used to work for the police and their communication systems and he told me about a massive flywheel driven backup system they had.
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Rotating grid stabilisation been around for ages. The inertia typically was a byproduct of actual large spinning coal gens directly connected.
Now that wind is more popular it's just electrically connected and hence the UK grid is a bit low on inertia.
Stability Pathfinder project saw some new Siemens synchronous condensers go in, they are pretty high tech and will save alot of money in the comming years.
Reminds me of the old Desertec idea, with different countries having roles, or 'specialisms'. For the UK, it was to provide huge amounts of generation from offshore wind.
And doing that, with the small (but huge) word 'net' added to our low carbon targets, makes life a lot easier when considering storage.
Just a thought, but I wonder how exports will help with our national trade balance. The bulk may be at low prices, when there's excess, but if that's balanced against cheap imports (again when in excess), then this may help the UK.
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Ken wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:13 pm
As we get more wind production then our exports must go up and our imports must come down. Seems like a self funding scheme to build more wind.
It's not that easy as the cost of the interconnects both to build and operate can outweigh the economics of more turbines. Would be good if we could nail 15MW+ models.
