UK car sales numbers (January 2023 registrations)

[ducabi]

Imho MHEV makes much more sense than PHEV where a tiny battery needs to be charged twice a day. I own a car with a small battery (17kwh) and keep thinking about how to plan usage given the practical range can be as low as 20-30miles.

[NikoV6]

Our iMiev had 17Kw battery and would do about 60 miles, more if you hypermiled. Was perfect little car for local work

[Mart]

We all know hybrids are a dead end. I'm just amazed that these MHEVs exist at all. To not even be able to run on EV mode at all is just ridiculous.

Mild hybrids will be the rouse to keep selling ICE cars post 2030.

You're almost as cynical as me!

I'm not sure if the rules have been worked out yet for the UK's 2030/2035 'ICE ban', but I'm hoping after 2030 only PHEV's will be allowed to still have an ICE.

Tbh, if that's correct, then I don't think PHEV's will be able to compete on price against BEV's, so it won't matter too much. In fact PHEV sales in the UK have been slowly slipping now (as a %age) for a year or two. Similar in the EU, and China, and never really got going in the US. Sweden was an outlier, with really high PEV figures, but more PHEV's than BEV's, but this has now reversed (the last year), helped by a small reduction in the PHEV subsidy, and corresponding increase in the BEV subsidy.

The IR Act in the USA is a mess though, as it quite strongly supports PHEV's for quite a few years, requiring minimal battery capacity. Oh well!

[smegal]

We all know hybrids are a dead end. I'm just amazed that these MHEVs exist at all. To not even be able to run on EV mode at all is just ridiculous.

Mild hybrids will be the rouse to keep selling ICE cars post 2030.

You're almost as cynical as me!

I'm not sure if the rules have been worked out yet for the UK's 2030/2035 'ICE ban', but I'm hoping after 2030 only PHEV's will be allowed to still have an ICE.

Tbh, if that's correct, then I don't think PHEV's will be able to compete on price against BEV's, so it won't matter too much. In fact PHEV sales in the UK have been slowly slipping now (as a %age) for a year or two. Similar in the EU, and China, and never really got going in the US. Sweden was an outlier, with really high PEV figures, but more PHEV's than BEV's, but this has now reversed (the last year), helped by a small reduction in the PHEV subsidy, and corresponding increase in the BEV subsidy.

The IR Act in the USA is a mess though, as it quite strongly supports PHEV's for quite a few years, requiring minimal battery capacity. Oh well!

I've just done a bit more digging. Looks like you may be correct.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/1089 ... e-affected

All new conventional petrol and diesel cars and vans are set to be banned from sale in the UK in 2030. New hybrids will be given a stay of execution until 2035, on the condition they are capable of covering a "significant distance" in zero-emission mode - a term which the Government has yet to define. Likewise, new plug-in hybrids will remain in showrooms for another five years, before being outlawed in 2035.

I thought that Mild hybrid would tick the 2035 box. Looks like that's not the case.

[dan_b]

As an interesting parallel point - ICE car manufacturers have been complaining about the new Euro 7 regulations and I wonder whether they have a point. If the EU bans new ICE car sales in 2035 as currently planned, then all car makers have to seriously invest in BEVs (bloody obvious at this point). But Euro 7 regs come in in 2025. So ICE makers also now have to spend a lot of extra investment to develop new fossil cars to meet Euro 7 but only for 10 years.

Does the Euro 7 regulation actually at this point mean that we could end up with more pollution than if the EU had stuck wtih Euro 6 until 2035 - because money will be diverted away from harder/faster development of BEVs from every manufacturer?

An interesting thought experiement if nothing else as I have no real sympathy for legacy ICE since Dieselgate and since BEVs have become entirely feasible.

[openspaceman]

The range extender types, especially with plug in capability seem much better, as you take advantage of steady efficiency of a generator, and don't have range anxiety issues.

Yes, I cannot understand why parallel hybrids got in first as, with a round trip efficiency of 85% for the battery charging , and the engine being able to work constantly at its peak thermodynamic efficiency it looked like it would easily outperform a conventional engine load following. Plus regeneration as a bit of bonus.

Prime energy still a home charged battery of course

[Mart]

I was going to start a new thread, but thought it fitted in well here to the discussion on moving away from ICEV's.

Maybe I'm being a bit extreme (but I suspect not), but any delays on paper, in transitioning to BEV's, will not now make any difference to the time shift in Europe. All Germany will achieve here is giving false hope to their auto sector, which could doom it, given the pace that Tesla and the Chinese are evolving.

VWG have sacked their best hope, Herbert Diess, and delayed the shift to a new BEV platform (Trinity), whilst the current platform (MEB) is producing BEV's slowly, that are now price comparable to larger Teslas - the ID3 priced at TM3 levels, and the ID4 at TMY levels. It's also unclear, but suspected that VW don't make a profit yet on those MEB based vehicles, so need the new platform, and increased production numbers to achieve profitability.

In a stable and mature market I can understand, but not condone, Germany's actions. But now that the 'BEVolution' is unstoppable, they risk seriously damaging their car industry and economy.

Germany Threatens To Derail EU Green Deal Over Fossil Car Phaseout

The German Transport Minister has threatened that the government will abstain from an EU vote to end the sale of new combustion engine cars and vans from 2035. EU governments and the European Parliament reached an agreement on the 2035 deadline last year after Germany’s FDP party said it would support the law.

A final vote by ministers on the deal had been planned for Tuesday (7th March) and was expected to be a formality. But it has been postponed, with no new date given for when a vote will be taken by the European Council. If the FDP’s threat that Germany will abstain is carried out, it will block a key part of the European Green Deal — the EU’s plan to become climate neutral in 2050. Cars are responsible for 12% of greenhouse gas emissions in Europe. A 2035 phaseout of internal combustion cars and vans in the EU would save almost 2 Gt of CO2 emissions by 2050, an analysis by green group Transport & Environment (T&E) shows.

[Mart]

In fairness to VWG, I've just seen another article, with comments from Audi:-

But the country’s environment ministry, led by the Greens, has said Germany should stick to the deal and not back away at the last minute.

Audi AG chief executive, Markus Duesmann, backed that position, saying turning away from the phase-out risked leaving the industry in limbo. “And that would be fatal for the car industry,” he told Der Spiegel magazine.

“Audi has made a clear decision: we are phasing out the internal combustion engine in 2033 because the battery-electric vehicle is the most efficient method for individual mobility,” Duesmann said in an interview published on Friday.

EU countries delay vote on landmark law to end sales of CO2-emitting cars

[John_S]

Just my tuppence worth.

In 2015 PHEV was the right choice for my transition to EVs. That is when I bought a six month old Mitsubishi Outlander. Sure, the battery only range was only about 25 miles but perfect for short journeys in London and a help on moderate journeys. Then available EVs (Tesla - expensive, Nissan Leaf - low range) were not an option. Obviously long journeys were less efficient because of the extra weight but rare enough to be acceptable to me. I loved the hybrid nature of the car which meant that it's overtaking performance was excellent.

In 2021 I transitioned to a VW ID4 First edition. I am very happy with it. Especially as I took delivery just two weeks after I walked into the local VW dealer and got a good trade in for my Outlander. Basically I squeezed the list price and the we buy any car price by £2,000. Albeit, I had no choice of any factory fit options and got my second preferred colour.

One big issue with all cars, especially EVs is the HMRC rates for company car mileage. Assuming that the company car is genuinely used for work purposes, the regime is either employer pays for all fuel (fuel card) and employee reimburses private mileage at HMRC rates. Or the employee pays for all fuel and the employee claims the HMRC mileage allowance for work miles. Trouble is that the HMRC rates often lag behind market conditions.

My daughter is a farm vet and needs a 4WD SUV type vehicle which her employer provides. She will rarely achieve the mpg that HMRC expect for the engine size due to the weight of the vehicle and the nature of the driving. Last year her practice moved from the employee pay and claim basis to the fuel card and reimburse basis as the rising cost of petrol made the old basis too expensive for the employees.

Her new lease car is a Hyundai Tuscon hybrid, decent BIK benefit. Preferred vehicle by the leasing company. Basically, it has to be used as a self-charging hybrid. If she pays for overnight charging she has a cost which she cannot set off against her reimbursement of private mileage. She is rarely at the vet's premises long enough to charge up. If she buys all the fuel and claims reimbursement for work miles, she would only get 15p per mile, which with petrol at £1.50 per litre beaks even at 10 miles per litre or 45mpg compared to the 35 mpg quoted by Hyundai.

No wonder so many company owned PHEVs are never plugged in. I don't know the solution.

For pure EV's the government reimbursement rate is 8p per mile, probably between 24p and 32p per kWh. If work business requires on the go charging, there is no way this is anywhere near rapid chargers prices of >60p per kWh.

Apologies for any rambling.

[Mart]

Hiya John. Just to say, thanks for posting that, as I'd heard rumours/suggestions that for some folk they can get petrol expenditure reimbursed (one way or another), but not leccy. So really interesting to hear similar from your 'rambling'. It's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world .... apparently.