Woodsmoke...

[Andy]

Cant retrofit any insulation for them Andy? I ask not as a slight or similar.

I have mentioned that and air to air pumps etc. I think given they aren’t planing on staying long it is hard to justify the huge expense.

Whoever is going to take over will have the most amazing store of wood. Probably 10-15 years worth all under cover.

Unfortunately they dabbled in RE back in the mid 2000 with solar thermal dhw. They’ve been sold a lemon at 7k that costs more on servicing to keep it going than what they save on dhw costs . Lots of weird decisions on tank sizing etc that also make it fairly pointless. It comes back to a lot of installers not truly understanding what they are dealing with and just selling people what makes them happy.

[AE-NMidlands]

e
Unfortunately they dabbled in RE back in the mid 2000 with solar thermal dhw. They’ve been sold a lemon at 7k that costs more on servicing to keep it going than what they save on dhw costs . Lots of weird decisions on tank sizing etc that also make it fairly pointless. It comes back to a lot of installers not truly understanding what they are dealing with and just selling people what makes them happy.

That's a real shame.
That sort of thing, amplified by Chinese whispers, may be why it is so difficult to get some folks interested in renewable energy. They treat it as either snake oil, a potential or obvious con, or just too alternative/ hippy a pursuit to get involved with.
I got my 30 tubes from Navitron (after reading lots of advice and downloading the installation guides from our old home) and they have been absolutely brilliant ever since. They are connected into the bottom of a twin-coil cyclinder that we bought and installed 35 years ago when we re-plumbed the house. I never got round to making a domestic-radiator-in-a-glazed-box DIY collector for myself and I'm glad I didn't. The whole set-up that I bought was very well chosen and complete, even down to the modified garden sprayer for pushing the antifreeze into the circuit.
On the downside, if they hadn't been so good I might have done something about pv before now, which would have driven me towards a heat pump too...
A

[spread-tee]

Gus,

what has all that got to do with woodstoves?? sure I get your point there are many polluters, some worse, some better than stoves, they all need some degree of attention but for this thread it's just a distraction. If you follow the links in the article you will see they are reporting the news as they see it, not expressing an opinion.

The link I posted earlier provides good evidence that the indoor air quality is badly compromised with PM2.5s when the stove door is opened, it is obvious therefore that while the door is shut they go up the flue and into our neighbours lungs. I don't think that is in doubt.

There may be some remediation by fitting catalysts as the makers claim, well they would wouldn't they?, but in that link also, while they find it helps a bit it is only a bit. That is probably open to debate somewhat. It is easy to dig up quite a lot of articles which show stoves are quite big players in the PM2.5 derby.

It is interesting to see how much defence of woodburners there is here, which possibly makes the politicians life easy as there doesn't seem to be a public consensus calling for a specific action. OK I know this is a very minute sample but I hope you get my point. They can make some grand sounding proclamations about banning stoves in 2035, thus ensuring someone else gets the bad press when action finally happens, but they get to claim some kudos with the people campaigning against them. If we speak with one voice stuff will happen but a whole bunch of varied opinions doesn't carry much clout, doesn't bode well for getting some real action at COP out26

Desp

[Bugtownboy]

Desp, while I fully accept burning wood produces a variety of PM’s - at the start of this thread, an article from the Guardian seemed quite biased blaming ‘woodburners’.

The article from DEFRA I quoted is more circumspect - the measurement of PM’s and their assignation does not meet certain scientific principles.

We’ve already seen the ability of wood burning stove ‘users’ is variable - either in their choice of stove, choice of fuel or ability to use said stove.

All of the articles do not discriminate between open fires and closed wood burning stoves or the type of fuel being used - I’m aware of many local users still using smokeless coal.

Before we get into a rabbit hole of blame, there needs to be a standardised, controlled view of emissions and how they need to be managed.

We’re never going to completely remove PM’s - every time we erode/burn/cook/create an aerosol probably move, we’re producing them.

Their production, probably because of various clean air initiatives, including DPF’s, has markedly reduced since the 1990’s.

In terms of catalytic converters, I don’t think they’d make a significant difference to PM10 & 2.5’s, it probably has to be some form of direct or ? electrostatic filtration. How you build this into a flue path

From a personal perspective, we moved from a relatively modern house (late 1990’s) to a 1930’s house that we installed WBS in.

OK, may not be directly related, but my chronic asthma has completely disappeared/never been better.

Let’s not throw the baby out with the Bath water without fully understanding the position. Yes, I’m biased.

To paraphrase that great environmentalist, Chuck Heston, “You can drag my log from my cold dead hands”

[Joeboy]

To paraphrase that great environmentalist, Chuck Heston, “You can drag my log from my cold dead hands”

I absolutey love this, well said!

[AE-NMidlands]

From a personal perspective, we moved from a relatively modern house (late 1900’s) to a 1930’s house that we installed WBS in.
OK, may not be directly related, but my chronic asthma has completely disappeared/never been better.

Late 1900's is relatively modern? I would surmise that a) the 1930s house might have cavity walls (which would warm it up a bit and allow moisture-laden air to leave before it condensed on internal surfaces) and/or
b) the stove might be drawing air from inside the house (i.e. it's not room-sealed or fed with fresh outside air immediately adjacent to it) so it is also sucking humid air out of the house, and at the same time diluting whatever indoor pollutants had been affecting your chest.
Both a and b will reduce mould growth and hence spores, which are asthmagens/respiratory sensitisers.
A

[spread-tee]

I am biased too BTB, I sit here typing this in front of the glow from our burner, but OTOH my COPD has not got better, I've been coughing like a consumption sufferer for 15 years now, long before we installed said burner. 30 years of plumbing and smoking jazz roll-ups probably don't help

However the article you linked to as you say is circumspect and didn't draw a firm conclusion, the article I linked to related specifically to closed stoves did however provide what I think is solid evidence of a lot of particulate matter indoors when the door is opened to re-fuel, it surely stands to reason that with the door closed most of that ends up outside. Agreed there is an argument to be had to determine what percentage of outside particulates are down to stoves, but again the Camden link I posted suggests it is a lot, like 30% or so??.

Again I know there are a lot of PMs around but that can't be an excuse for creating loads more of them, in many cases(ours for example) needlessly.

Agreed about the baby/bathwater syndrome, but I have a feeling in my lungs that the case for doing something will only get stronger. It probably wont be as bad as we think, retrospective legislation is really difficult to enforce, how would you justify ripping out open fires ofr stoves that had been installed some time back? After all there is enormous amounts of asbestos kicking around in our houses and no-one is jumping up and down about that, it will go the same as gas boilers I think, No new stoves to be sold from 20xx whenever and so the issue will gradually wither and die.

What we need to do here is invent a nice clean electric woodstove, or even a nuclear powered stove, Hinkley ain't gonna be up and running anytime soon there's bound to be some plutonium kicking around. I can see it now, The all new Despo-BTB Nuclear clean burn Woody stove, only needs refilling once in four years, you can't turn it off and your house might end up looking like the Volcano on La-Palma, but you'll be warm without the nasty PMs

What's not to like??

Desp

[Mr Gus]

Desp.

If you cannot see then that's a real shame.

There are standards to buy, install & operate a WBS in this part of london resulting in great expense, & likely a lot of puzzlement as to the differences involved in legal vs illegal.

https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/en ... ves-london

From Camden council website..

"Air pollution in Camden
Data from Imperial College London suggests that air pollution in Camden causes around 109 early deaths each year.

Road vehicles are the main source of air pollution in Camden, contributing 47% of NO2 emissions and 26% of PM2.5 emissions in the borough. Gas boilers are the second-largest source of pollution, contributing 42% of NO2 and 12% of PM2.5. Commercial cooking, domestic wood-burning, construction, industrial activity and diesel trains are also important sources of air pollution in Camden"

But seems that any fool can set up a wood burning pizza oven without governance related to design standard & air quality that is demanded at home within the area.
Moreover you set up in a world renowned busy market with a lot of footfall, a short chimney & a lot of potential PM2.5 being breathed in, but "pizza" hey!?

So if you are a regular stall holder there pizza purveyor or not, accumulating hours per day over a year that's lots of pollution potential that is not under the same scrutiny to be completely fair, & a hell of a lot more folk milling around to breathe it in.

Idiots who burn crud need a kick up the backside, but why demonise those who bothered to learn good practise? which they are.

All those other polluters don't get smacked around by the guardian seasonally, why not?, loads of bias, sometimes even sponsored content which "may" be deemed an advertising feature but not recognised as such.

All those other highly polluting potential things mentioned need as much of a spotlight shining on them to make people think & change in a timely manner rather than shock treatment, as well as fixes & alternates, otherwise what sort of a teacher / progressive are you?

Do you want people to fire up heating oil, install more gas, use portable gas heaters, paraffin? (with all the problems that go with it instead)?

Can we ban firework displays & big public bonfires associated with that whilst we are at it then, regardless of religion & custom, that's a damnable waste of energy & a polluting fug that has potential to hang for days but overlooked / ignored?

IF we are serious about ratcheting down on all of this PM2 & associated malarkey then all must be addressed, so why aren't they?

Fairs fair, & balance should be apportioned equally, ..which it is not.

[Mr Gus]

Folk.
Just a thought.
Why aren't pollution monitors standard in ICE vehicles? & outside schools?

[spread-tee]

Desp.

If you cannot see then that's a real shame.

Thanks Gus, I love you too.


IF we are serious about ratcheting down on all of this PM2 & associated malarkey then all must be addressed, so why aren't they?

Dunno, ask the GOVT

Fairs fair, & balance should be apportioned equally, ..which it is not.

I'll chuck another tyre on the stove then

Desp