Battery powered train sets UK record

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AE-NMidlands
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Re: Battery powered train sets UK record

#21

Post by AE-NMidlands »

a very bad idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage

I cannot believe the number of silver or grey cars that you see (eventually) with no lights on under a grey sky on a shiny wet road. Modern cars have them by default, so these idiots must have deliberately turned them off! Probably appeasing their consciences and saving fuel rather than abandoning their 2-minute drive to the shop...
Paul_F wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 9:03 am That's a good rundown of the issues, after reading a little more, It is a shame we still don't just have a fully electrified (overhead) rail network, :head-bang: but we don't, and maybe it is a distraction to look at battery electric trains, but I can still see a stop gap case for them on shorter branch lines, surely regen braking could make a big efficiency gain too and maybe even third rail in stations for powering up to speed and charging whilst stationary.
I am grateful for the summary too, I am too close to it and get distracted by current real-world constraints that most people don't think are relevant. While regen braking is used nowadays, the problem with batteries will always be energy density. The current driver for procurement is seats per unit length... some suburban units being introduced now look poor on this score, but that is because they are expected to take a much higher proportion than we are used to standing!
The thing about battery pods, or compartments, is that they take up space that would otherwise have seats in. And the self-propelled ones would either have to have traction current-rated automatic couplings (not going to happen, ever) or be effectively another fleet of locos, which implies space lost to cabs at both ends, plus more complex layouts at the end of the lines using them - when we can't afford to do much-needed obvious simple tweaks even on non-electrified lines because the signalling is too expensive or difficult to alter!
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Countrypaul
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Re: Battery powered train sets UK record

#22

Post by Countrypaul »

Mart, your comment about black carsis very true imho. There is a cross roads close to where we used to live where a small road comes down a steep hill crosses a main road then coninues down hill. The cross roads is controlled by traffic lights. On 2 occasions I came down the small road waited for the green light and set off straight across. On both occasions car coming up the hill was waiting at the traffic lights and also set off when the lights turned green then prompty turned right into me. The other drivers claimed they never saw me, the first car I was in was my wifes black Ford Puma (written off by a blue Merc sports car driven by a solicitor), the second car was my wifes black A3, also written of by, I thik a Renault driven by someone in the medical profession who called an ambulance as I wad knocked unconscious it seems (at least both the other driver and a witness said so). The A3 did have the daylight driving lights on. My wife now has a white car...
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AlBargey
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Re: Battery powered train sets UK record

#23

Post by AlBargey »

I missed this at the time:

1000A Charging capability - "about 1.8MW charging power"

Retractable charging shoes:

Image

Charging rails:

Image

Drivers Display:

Image

Shame there aren't more technical specs, but the above was from here with some video footage too:

https://x.com/MrTimDunn/status/1758622550932770974?s=20
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Ken
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Re: Battery powered train sets UK record

#24

Post by Ken »

I am left wondering what the problem is.

Clearly its possible as every EV shows.
There are already battery OR hybrid trains, eg Hitachi

"These battery commuter trains
offer powerful performance with
top speeds of 162km/h and
acceleration of 1.10 m/sec2
, and
travel up to 150km on battery alone.
Delivering reliability and longevity,
the trains are designed for up to 25
years’ service life with 130,000km
yearly operation and up to 16 hours
of daily commercial operation."

So the only problem i can see is the same as EV cars ie why pay more and replace a car doing good service.

Mart,
Some 15%? of males are red/green/brown colour blind as i am. A red car in the green countryside.
Ken
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Re: Battery powered train sets UK record

#25

Post by Ken »

Its already underway.

https://news.gwr.com/news/great-western ... nce-record.

When i look at these trains they are very inefficient aerodynamic wise with bits hanging down underneath and above and square fronts. I am sure if they gave this to Tesla they would 1/2 the drag.
Stig
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Re: Battery powered train sets UK record

#26

Post by Stig »

I wonder how quickly an electric train can lower & raise its pantograph -I'd have thought many lines that are too expensive to electrify due to low bridges etc. could be partially electrified to run a hybrid overhead/battery train.
Mart
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Re: Battery powered train sets UK record

#27

Post by Mart »

Stig wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 1:35 pm I wonder how quickly an electric train can lower & raise its pantograph -I'd have thought many lines that are too expensive to electrify due to low bridges etc. could be partially electrified to run a hybrid overhead/battery train.
I've been thinking the same, or even if just at stations/stops, in some cases, like the bus idea:

TfL introduces new innovative pantograph bus charging technology

I'm also pretty sure some buses have induction charging at some stops, as do some taxi's I believe, so they can move along taxi ranks. No idea if this is just a test idea or if it could work for trains, then having the power safely covered might help?


@Ken, thanks, I had no idea it was as high as 15%.
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AlBargey
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Re: Battery powered train sets UK record

#28

Post by AlBargey »

Ken wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 1:16 pm
When i look at these trains they are very inefficient aerodynamic wise with bits hanging down underneath and above and square fronts. I am sure if they gave this to Tesla they would 1/2 the drag.
I think a child could design a more aerodynamic train! but I doubt it's as important for such a long vehicle vs a short one? Also the battery boxes? underneath were flat which could be better a normal train underside. Again if it was integrated and designed from scratch surely they could do better, but I'm not sure if diesel / normal trains are that aerodynamic either.
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Paul_F
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Re: Battery powered train sets UK record

#29

Post by Paul_F »

AlBargey wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 7:44 pmThat's a good rundown of the issues, after reading a little more, It is a shame we still don't just have a fully electrified (overhead) rail network, :head-bang: but we don't, and maybe it is a distraction to look at battery electric trains, but I can still see a stop gap case for them on shorter branch lines, surely regen braking could make a big efficiency gain too and maybe even third rail in stations for powering up to speed and charging whilst stationary.
That's essentially what this trial is about - replacing diesel on branch lines which have a very low density of use so electrification is not cost-effective.
Ken wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 1:16 pmWhen i look at these trains they are very inefficient aerodynamic wise with bits hanging down underneath and above and square fronts. I am sure if they gave this to Tesla they would 1/2 the drag.
Remember that they're all done like this for a reason - square fronts maximise passenger space, non-flush doors open faster and are cheaper to install, un-faired stuff under the train is easier and cheaper to maintain, etc. It's also worth noting that because trains are very long and thin aerodynamically and commuter trains aren't terribly fast, the effect of aerodynamic drag really isn't all that strong compared to other factors. Very aerodynamic trains exist where needed (high speed rail!), but it usually isn't the dominant consideration.
Stig wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 1:35 pmI wonder how quickly an electric train can lower & raise its pantograph -I'd have thought many lines that are too expensive to electrify due to low bridges etc. could be partially electrified to run a hybrid overhead/battery train.
There are established ways of handling it - lower voltage for reduced clearance and use of conductor bars rather than wires. Bridges have a finite life though, and in most cases it's cheaper long-term to replace the bridge.
Risk of relying on the pantograph moving up and down is of course that one day it will be forgotten and you'll have a bridge strike on the pantograph and lots of sparks!
richbee
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Re: Battery powered train sets UK record

#30

Post by richbee »

I keep glancing at this thread and see 'battery powered train sets' ...UK record.

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