Agile yesterday

[AE-NMidlands]

I'm trying to get my head around the finer details of how this works, and seeing

Wholesale energy prices hit second highest level in at least three years

Low wind speeds on Monday pushed UK price for peak period of 5pm to 6pm to over £2,000 per megawatt hour

in the Graun I looked at agile on https://dashboards.energy-stats.uk/d/y9 ... -2d&to=now



Is this really saying they would have paid you 207p/kWhr from 1700 to 1730, and 125 p a unit from 1600 to 1800 outside that? I gather that the limiting factor is what your gubbins can actually process, so if you are restricted to 3kW it's a maximum of (0.5hr x 3kW) or 1.5 kWhr at 207p, plus 1.5hr x 3kw at 125p... £8.73?

I see the powerwall says it will do 5kW continuously, so you could increase that a bit? How long can it deliver the 7kW peak? The standard powerwall seems to offer 13.5 kWhr, so that will easily handle 5 kW for 2 hrs. However you have to recharge it at 35p/kWhr (unless you have your own turbine...)
A

[Stinsy]

Neither Agile tariff was designed for the situation we now find ourselves in!

Agile Incoming was designed around a market where the price would vary from 5p to 20p per kWh over a typical day and users could shift their electricity use by timing EV charging, timing use of appliances, etc., or by using batteries, to avoid the expensive times and make the most of the cheapest times. Occasionally the price would dip to zero or even go negative and occasionally the peak price would go as high as 35p.

However the energy market now is such that the Agile Incoming price has hit the maximum of 35p/kWh pretty much every day since June, with the lowest daily price being higher than 20p most days. This has been exceptionally painful for Agile Incoming customers, but the 35p/kWh cap has protected them from the reality of the wholesale market whereby prices have been higher than 200p/kWh on many occasions.

Agile Outgoing has no such "cap", so the prices reflect the real wholesale price nomatter how high it goes. This has led to situations where people are charging their batteries at 35p/kWh and discharging them to the grid at 200p/kWh or more. You can cycle your batteries constantly by charging them for 10mins then discharging them for 10mins if you like and profit accordingly. Octopus has changed their T&Cs to say they now have the right to refuse payment to customers with batteries. I haven't heard of anyone being refused payment, nor have I any information about where Octopus draw the line on "fair use", but you can understand why Octopus felt such a change was needed.

Most customers export is limited to 16A (including their household consumption) under G98 (or G83) so while they can charge their batteries as fast as their inverter/charger will allow their opportunity to profit is limited.

Yesterday was a "perfect storm" for super-high wholesale prices. No wind, no solar, over 60% of our electricity being generated by gas for most of the day, the gas comes from Russia via Belarus whose leaders seem to be playing silly games to demonstrate their influence (and our lack thereof).

[nowty]

Its quite amusing as Octopus now have contradictory info on their website,

On their main Outgoing page in their FAQ's it still says,

What can I use an export tariff for?

We haven’t put a limit on this. Export via any source capable of feeding energy back to the grid. So that’s not just solar PV…

YOU CAN: get a micro-wind turbine installed, charge up home batteries when energy’s cheapest to feed back into the grid later, or (if you’ve managed to get your hands on a vehicle-to-grid charger) use your electric car’s spare battery

But in their Export Terms and conditions it says,

4.5.1 We are not obligated to make Export Tariff payments to you:

(i) for any ‘Brown Export’ – i.e. exported electricity not generated by an eligible generation asset (including standby generators, batteries and technologies not supported by the Smart Export Guarantee; or

(ii) where you or the generation asset do not satisfy the Eligibility Criteria as set out at Clause 5 of these Export T&Cs below.

And in clause 5 it says,

5.2 The generation asset must generate electricity wholly or mainly from one of the following energy sources):

(i) Solar Photovoltaic (PV);

(ii) Hydro;

(iii) Micro-combined heat and power (micro-CHP);

(iv) Wind;

(v) Anaerobic Digestion (AD).

[Stinsy]

It seems the legal team who changed the T&Cs didn't tell the marketing team to change the sales pitch!

Octopus would be hard-pushed to enforce the T&Cs while they are so clearly contradicted by the marketing materials.

[AE-NMidlands]

4.5.1 We are not obligated to make Export Tariff payments to you:

(i) for any ‘Brown Export’ – i.e. exported electricity not generated by an eligible generation asset (including standby generators, batteries and technologies not supported by the Smart Export Guarantee; or

(ii) where you or the generation asset do not satisfy the Eligibility Criteria as set out at Clause 5 of these Export T&Cs below.

And in clause 5 it says,

5.2 The generation asset must generate electricity wholly or mainly from one of the following energy sources):

(i) Solar Photovoltaic (PV);

(ii) Hydro;

(iii) Micro-combined heat and power (micro-CHP);

(iv) Wind;

(v) Anaerobic Digestion (AD).

Do we think that they will regard people's shares of Ripple tubines as an eligible "generation asset?"
A

[nowty]

I have had a re-think on the terminology. From what I understand "Brown" energy is FF based so I can understand the issue about an ineligible generation asset. Like a diesel generator, or even a battery charged up from a FF generator, or even charged up from your neighbour who is not on a renewable tariff.

Octopus says ALL their supply is 100% renewable so I think the Ripple turbine is irrelevant and if you charge from the grid powered by Octopus it is by their own definition from an eligible source.

I don't see a time shifted battery discharge as a Brown energy source and therefore is an eligible generation asset.

[Moxi]

I take this to be the sort of situation where the small battery system owners (ie domestic users) give back to the system, help Octopus to educate government to new ways and beef up our own personal green credentials.

For Octopus and the national grid its got to be good if they can soak up and release power through 100's or 1000's of small domestic batteries at short notice and for short periods.

Obviously the owners need to be suitably compensated and not left with empty battery banks and importing electricity back at premium prices and from what I seem from Nowty's posting as long as the source of the power meets the Octopus green criteria they are willing to do this.

Only just starting to read these threads as it starts to become a potential for me but I am guessing at the minute that the decision to export and how much sits with the battery owner ? Is that correct.

If so I like this approach as I would be able (in the future) to pick a time and a figure that suits my plans and while the income may seem modest we should remember for a lot of people in the UK a couple of quid extra can be the difference between having something or going without.

I appreciate that this may not be as the National Grid would like though and could lead to people forecasting and holding back for peak prices but I don't see people willingly handing over physical control of their systems unless a fair and equitable contract can be produced - again wasn't / isn't this something Octopus are looking at ??

I maybe off topic/ my head and if so sorry - I'm still tired from driving home from Darkest Kent last night.

Moxi

[Stinsy]

I take this to be the sort of situation where the small battery system owners (ie domestic users) give back to the system, help Octopus to educate government to new ways and beef up our own personal green credentials.

For Octopus and the national grid its got to be good if they can soak up and release power through 100's or 1000's of small domestic batteries at short notice and for short periods.

Obviously the owners need to be suitably compensated and not left with empty battery banks and importing electricity back at premium prices and from what I seem from Nowty's posting as long as the source of the power meets the Octopus green criteria they are willing to do this.

Only just starting to read these threads as it starts to become a potential for me but I am guessing at the minute that the decision to export and how much sits with the battery owner ? Is that correct.

If so I like this approach as I would be able (in the future) to pick a time and a figure that suits my plans and while the income may seem modest we should remember for a lot of people in the UK a couple of quid extra can be the difference between having something or going without.

I appreciate that this may not be as the National Grid would like though and could lead to people forecasting and holding back for peak prices but I don't see people willingly handing over physical control of their systems unless a fair and equitable contract can be produced - again wasn't / isn't this something Octopus are looking at ??

I maybe off topic/ my head and if so sorry - I'm still tired from driving home from Darkest Kent last night.

Moxi

The way Octopus run their tariffs, the user does as they like. Octopus nudge people into consuming power or feeding in to the grid by setting the incoming and outgoing prices accordingly.

Other plans vary. For example there are V2G BEV tariffs where the user gets £30 off their electricity bill if their car is plugged in between 6pm and 6am on 10 occasions in a month (and £60 for 20 occasions) but the power company decides when and how-much to charge/discharge.

I’ve ordered an iD4. VW have promised V2G capability but while the hardware is there it is disabled in software because VW haven’t yet figured out how the money created can go to them (rather than the customer).

Being in control of my own stuff is important to me. I deliberately forwent the government grant when I had an EV charging point installed at my house, because a condition of the grant is that the power company can turn it down/off to balance the grid. That sort of thing doesn’t sit well with me.

[Tinbum]

Being in control of my own stuff is important to me. I deliberately forwent the government grant when I had an EV charging point installed at my house, because a condition of the grant is that the power company can turn it down/off to balance the grid. That sort of thing doesn’t sit well with me.

It doesn't sit well with me either. I try to avoid all the 'cloud' stuff and why do smart meters have a relay in them if it's not for some use. All my stuff will run without the internet.

I also hate things like,

"as part of your current tariff you agreed to have smart meters fitted. Click the link below to pick a date and time that suits you. If you don’t agree to have a smart meter fitted we may have to change your tariff and this could mean you end up paying more for your energy."

Their was no mention of having to have a smart meter fitted.

[Fintray]

I appreciate that this may not be as the National Grid would like though and could lead to people forecasting and holding back for peak prices but I don't see people willingly handing over physical control of their systems unless a fair and equitable contract can be produced - again wasn't / isn't this something Octopus are looking at ??
Moxi

Octopus have the Tesla tariff which I am on (but not for much longer!) that allows Tesla to decide when to charge and discharge my battery. The payback on this is I pay 11p/kWh for import and get paid the same for export with no daily standing charge which suits me fine, however they have changed the rules and I no longer comply with them so am being moved off this tariff.