Building an EV more efficient than walking
Re: Building an EV more efficient than walking
I hadta shrink two battery holders to get them to marry to the existing bottle mount screwholes on the frame.
Battery base trays are generally the only fitment item I justify drilling the frame with the possible exception of motor torque arms if necessary.
I mock-mounted the trays on the bottle mounts and used an automatic centre-punch to dimple the new mounting points.
These things are the dog's danglies. Called nutserts AKA rivnuts. It's like a pop rivet for threaded inserts except they don't pop.
Shiney!
If you're running stainless steel bolts into aluminium threads and you ever want to get them apart again, use copper anti-seize.
Stainless steel and aluminium make a galvanic cell and like to entropically weld together.
Easy as peasy
I'll be attaching a third base to the centre but that's an auxiliary and it'll require a mounting plate I've yet to fabricate because the steering linkage travels through it.
Connecting NMC li-ion together unbridled could become explosive if they're not at exactly the same SOC. Hence I'll be fitting this dofer:
As the label says it's a Many Battery Balance Discharger!
AKA an ideal diode, and a three-way at that. It's functionally a "split charge diode" using MOSFETs to eliminate Vf drop. Incredibly cheap for what it is. These were highly sought after and prohibitively expensive back in the day van and boat dwellers lived off alternator power as a primary.
It aggregates current to the motor proportionally to the highest SOC as a priority because shyt rolls downhill.
It's fully potted inside but the XT60s are getting the silicone treatment on the workbench overnight.
Battery base trays are generally the only fitment item I justify drilling the frame with the possible exception of motor torque arms if necessary.
I mock-mounted the trays on the bottle mounts and used an automatic centre-punch to dimple the new mounting points.
These things are the dog's danglies. Called nutserts AKA rivnuts. It's like a pop rivet for threaded inserts except they don't pop.
Shiney!
If you're running stainless steel bolts into aluminium threads and you ever want to get them apart again, use copper anti-seize.
Stainless steel and aluminium make a galvanic cell and like to entropically weld together.
Easy as peasy
I'll be attaching a third base to the centre but that's an auxiliary and it'll require a mounting plate I've yet to fabricate because the steering linkage travels through it.
Connecting NMC li-ion together unbridled could become explosive if they're not at exactly the same SOC. Hence I'll be fitting this dofer:
As the label says it's a Many Battery Balance Discharger!
AKA an ideal diode, and a three-way at that. It's functionally a "split charge diode" using MOSFETs to eliminate Vf drop. Incredibly cheap for what it is. These were highly sought after and prohibitively expensive back in the day van and boat dwellers lived off alternator power as a primary.
It aggregates current to the motor proportionally to the highest SOC as a priority because shyt rolls downhill.
It's fully potted inside but the XT60s are getting the silicone treatment on the workbench overnight.
Re: Building an EV more efficient than walking
...running low on content...I'll just distract them with adventure photos....{ *Did I type that aloud¿ }
Goin' to town rig.
Local supermarket in the distance.
Less is more!
Goin' to town rig.
Local supermarket in the distance.
Less is more!
Re: Building an EV more efficient than walking
I ordered a steering damper. I was debating if I'd need one and I thought I'd see how running commando went first. A fellow biker mentioned it'd be a good idea, and knowing how I have a prediliction for 100% duty continuous {it's underwritten in my manifesto} I realise there's no economy in cutting safety features.
Let's discuss why Mid-drives are the best!
Because gears!
Hub drives can't climb hills.
Hub drives don't put the motor weight low and centered at the bottom bracket. You won't find a thoroughbred eMTB with anything but a mid-drive.
Hub drives do regen (direct drive hub drives..not internally geared ones {if you weld the clutches they can though}) given how often I use the brakes I don't think that feature would be as much of an asset as an auxiliary battery.
I've looked at belts. No internally geared hub on the market can handle more than 100Nm of torque, they can grenade if you shift under load or the infinitely variable transmission versions aren't efficient. Both kinds require annual servicing. Pain in the hoop to fix a puncture on the side of the road.
The cassette is still the champion when it comes to low-weight, serviceability (you can replace one in 15 mins, an IGH; you'll haveta rebuild a wheel), largest gear range and highest input torque capability. Even with the rear derailleur as a low hanging liability.
The BBSHD comes with a 46T Chainring and I run 9 speed 11-46T cassettes. The motor RPM limit is 150 RPM. On the stock Bafang 170mm crank arms that's impossible to cadence match. Okay you could legitimately argue that at max motor output on flat ground the air resistance drag caused by pedalling exceeds the power you can contribute however I rebut that to say that in Winter pedalling is the "Cab. heater". I've found that swapping the stock 170mm cranks for 114mm is the perfect companion to the 46T chainring onna 26" rear tyre giving the rider enough resistance on the 15T rear sprocket to effectively create a mechanical torque sensor at a comfy(er) cadence. Remember any gear higher than the 15T is downhill only because they will get deformed if you run them on inclines. An electric motor's max torque is at 0 RPM.
If you're on a hill the rider can contribute as much useful horsepower as the motor so don't dismiss it as unnecessary. The more you pedal the longer your range and higher your fitness to boot.
The Bafangs M635 is a torque sensing motor with the same capability as the BBSHD, they're hen's teeth at the moment, I don't think you can program it and the mounting solution is a downgrade.
The BBS02 is more eMTB and less eScooter. You will feel obliged to pedal it. It just doesn't have the same grunt at 100Nm of torque and 120RPM which is a normal person more natural fast Cadence. There's a much higher availability of chainrings for the BBS02 than the BBSHD. You can go from a 36T chain ring up to a 52T so losing leverage by shortening the cranks is less necessary to hone your mechanical torque sensor setup.
A side benefit of the BBS02s is you can just about get away without upgrading the groupset to a ruggedised one. If you're cog-nisant you'll get a decent life outtov an aluminium cassette.
A difference of 10mm in crank length is equal to a difference of 3 teeth of chain ring.
I run 140mm cranks on a 48T Chainring on my BBS02s, 26" wheels.
My roady has 170mm cranks on a 52T chainring with a 700C wheel. She does one thing better than every other bike and nothing else which is go the distance over asphalt. I thinks she has 1500 kms on her. The eMTBs have a combined 7500kms (in under a year) That shows you where my priorites are at. You just can't throw a roady around like you can an MTB and they don't hold the road in a lean.
The BBS02s are 85% efficient, the BBSHD is 80%.
I put 600kms on a BBS01, they're plenty of fun too but I won't ever be going back. If it was that or a hub drive I'd take the BBS01.
Let's discuss why Mid-drives are the best!
Because gears!
Hub drives can't climb hills.
Hub drives don't put the motor weight low and centered at the bottom bracket. You won't find a thoroughbred eMTB with anything but a mid-drive.
Hub drives do regen (direct drive hub drives..not internally geared ones {if you weld the clutches they can though}) given how often I use the brakes I don't think that feature would be as much of an asset as an auxiliary battery.
I've looked at belts. No internally geared hub on the market can handle more than 100Nm of torque, they can grenade if you shift under load or the infinitely variable transmission versions aren't efficient. Both kinds require annual servicing. Pain in the hoop to fix a puncture on the side of the road.
The cassette is still the champion when it comes to low-weight, serviceability (you can replace one in 15 mins, an IGH; you'll haveta rebuild a wheel), largest gear range and highest input torque capability. Even with the rear derailleur as a low hanging liability.
The BBSHD comes with a 46T Chainring and I run 9 speed 11-46T cassettes. The motor RPM limit is 150 RPM. On the stock Bafang 170mm crank arms that's impossible to cadence match. Okay you could legitimately argue that at max motor output on flat ground the air resistance drag caused by pedalling exceeds the power you can contribute however I rebut that to say that in Winter pedalling is the "Cab. heater". I've found that swapping the stock 170mm cranks for 114mm is the perfect companion to the 46T chainring onna 26" rear tyre giving the rider enough resistance on the 15T rear sprocket to effectively create a mechanical torque sensor at a comfy(er) cadence. Remember any gear higher than the 15T is downhill only because they will get deformed if you run them on inclines. An electric motor's max torque is at 0 RPM.
If you're on a hill the rider can contribute as much useful horsepower as the motor so don't dismiss it as unnecessary. The more you pedal the longer your range and higher your fitness to boot.
The Bafangs M635 is a torque sensing motor with the same capability as the BBSHD, they're hen's teeth at the moment, I don't think you can program it and the mounting solution is a downgrade.
The BBS02 is more eMTB and less eScooter. You will feel obliged to pedal it. It just doesn't have the same grunt at 100Nm of torque and 120RPM which is a normal person more natural fast Cadence. There's a much higher availability of chainrings for the BBS02 than the BBSHD. You can go from a 36T chain ring up to a 52T so losing leverage by shortening the cranks is less necessary to hone your mechanical torque sensor setup.
A side benefit of the BBS02s is you can just about get away without upgrading the groupset to a ruggedised one. If you're cog-nisant you'll get a decent life outtov an aluminium cassette.
A difference of 10mm in crank length is equal to a difference of 3 teeth of chain ring.
I run 140mm cranks on a 48T Chainring on my BBS02s, 26" wheels.
My roady has 170mm cranks on a 52T chainring with a 700C wheel. She does one thing better than every other bike and nothing else which is go the distance over asphalt. I thinks she has 1500 kms on her. The eMTBs have a combined 7500kms (in under a year) That shows you where my priorites are at. You just can't throw a roady around like you can an MTB and they don't hold the road in a lean.
The BBS02s are 85% efficient, the BBSHD is 80%.
I put 600kms on a BBS01, they're plenty of fun too but I won't ever be going back. If it was that or a hub drive I'd take the BBS01.
Re: Building an EV more efficient than walking
Saladin
Enjoying the thread, amazing build of your 'car replacement', havent the foggiest on 99% of the information and detail but a great read and some amazing engineering amd knowledge going into it all, am looking forward to seeing this machine in action once completed.
Will need to be a video of it in action as a minimum to slate ones thirst.
Used to be a keen road cyclist back in my youth, all stock equipment, around 400-500 miles a week ish, alas to old and crocked now, standard 1990's 16 geared Campy powered bike currently sitting on the turbo trainer in the back room collecting dust, 21 speed tourer rooted adjacent.
Keep the updates coming.
Enjoying the thread, amazing build of your 'car replacement', havent the foggiest on 99% of the information and detail but a great read and some amazing engineering amd knowledge going into it all, am looking forward to seeing this machine in action once completed.
Will need to be a video of it in action as a minimum to slate ones thirst.
Used to be a keen road cyclist back in my youth, all stock equipment, around 400-500 miles a week ish, alas to old and crocked now, standard 1990's 16 geared Campy powered bike currently sitting on the turbo trainer in the back room collecting dust, 21 speed tourer rooted adjacent.
Keep the updates coming.
4.0kw FIT PV solar Sunnyboy 4000tl & 7 x 570w JA solar panels
7.08kw JA Solar panels & Sunsynk ECCO 3.6kw.
7 x US5000 Pylontechs.
4500l RWH
Full Biomass heating system
iBoost HW divertor
Full house internal walls insulation
600min Loft insulation
7.08kw JA Solar panels & Sunsynk ECCO 3.6kw.
7 x US5000 Pylontechs.
4500l RWH
Full Biomass heating system
iBoost HW divertor
Full house internal walls insulation
600min Loft insulation
Re: Building an EV more efficient than walking
tehehehe...wouldya believe I get that a lot. You're not alone.
Bring 'em into the 21st century! Stick a bafang BBS02 kit on one. Bikes never die. Aluminium doesn't rust and everything's replaceable.resybaby wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2024 7:20 am Used to be a keen road cyclist back in my youth, all stock equipment, around 400-500 miles a week ish, alas to old and crocked now, standard 1990's 16 geared Campy powered bike currently sitting on the turbo trainer in the back room collecting dust, 21 speed tourer rooted adjacent.
You don't even need knees anymore!
Re: Building an EV more efficient than walking
That's what I did with one of my bikes as an experiment when I was in an office.
A mid-drive was perfect in this case, TSDZ2 with open-source firmware for additional control and tuning.
Combine that with a recumbent with decent aero, my eMPG was amazing.
One of the few things I miss about working in an office, I have no need to commute on something as fun as this anymore.
10x 405W JA Solar panels (4.05kWp) @ 5 degrees
3x 405W Longi panels (1.22kWp) @ 90 degrees
16.5kWh DIY LifePo4 battery
Solis inverter/charger
0.6kW Ripple WT
64kWh Kia E-Niro
3x 405W Longi panels (1.22kWp) @ 90 degrees
16.5kWh DIY LifePo4 battery
Solis inverter/charger
0.6kW Ripple WT
64kWh Kia E-Niro
Re: Building an EV more efficient than walking
ccoo-waor that's a phancy machine Mr Pablo! The TSD is a tidier package too.
Too right about aero...My first post omitted a few even more capable advocates.
Every bike ride is an adventure! I'll take any excuse...and the long way home. In fact I preference employment I can bike to over an infernal combustion engine. I'll even take a paycut if I can leave the car behind.
It's a totally immersive experience, the wind in your face, the bugs in your eyeballs!
Zero emisions just isn't. Brake pads, tyres, powerplant emissions, embodied energy, manufacturing and mining by-products.
It's a bit offensive trying to breath while excercising and getting wafted with exhaust fumes. If we can't plumb the tailpipe back into the cab for the driver then why is it ok to make everybody breath it?
Not to say I'm anti-car, bit indifferent really, for perspective I rarely have a need for one that I can't complete the same task while having more craic and laughing at traffic congestion on a two wheeler. Mostly I use it to buy used bicycles from classifieds
Another argument on how the ebike is more efficient than walking is mine're charged with solar power. My meat suit is either charged indirectly by photosynthesis from being a herbivore or worse from photosynthesis converted to meat converted to kCals if I'm in carnivore mode.
I often believed walking downhill was a missed opportunity to ride wheels...I spent ~ 5 years with a downhill longboard as my primary transport type. They're an urban machine though. The wheels are too small for country roads.
For longer journeys I stick a bike on a train and modern trains have "laptop sockets" that you can plug a demountable bike battery into so you can recharge while you travel. You can fast charge them by using one charger on the designated charge port and a second on the "discharge" or "motor/load" port I'll elaborate later. It's not 100% safe but I refuse to say a thing can't or mustn't be done. It can be done safely if you take precautions like diode protecting your chargers from eachother.
Too right about aero...My first post omitted a few even more capable advocates.
Every bike ride is an adventure! I'll take any excuse...and the long way home. In fact I preference employment I can bike to over an infernal combustion engine. I'll even take a paycut if I can leave the car behind.
It's a totally immersive experience, the wind in your face, the bugs in your eyeballs!
Zero emisions just isn't. Brake pads, tyres, powerplant emissions, embodied energy, manufacturing and mining by-products.
It's a bit offensive trying to breath while excercising and getting wafted with exhaust fumes. If we can't plumb the tailpipe back into the cab for the driver then why is it ok to make everybody breath it?
Not to say I'm anti-car, bit indifferent really, for perspective I rarely have a need for one that I can't complete the same task while having more craic and laughing at traffic congestion on a two wheeler. Mostly I use it to buy used bicycles from classifieds
Another argument on how the ebike is more efficient than walking is mine're charged with solar power. My meat suit is either charged indirectly by photosynthesis from being a herbivore or worse from photosynthesis converted to meat converted to kCals if I'm in carnivore mode.
I often believed walking downhill was a missed opportunity to ride wheels...I spent ~ 5 years with a downhill longboard as my primary transport type. They're an urban machine though. The wheels are too small for country roads.
For longer journeys I stick a bike on a train and modern trains have "laptop sockets" that you can plug a demountable bike battery into so you can recharge while you travel. You can fast charge them by using one charger on the designated charge port and a second on the "discharge" or "motor/load" port I'll elaborate later. It's not 100% safe but I refuse to say a thing can't or mustn't be done. It can be done safely if you take precautions like diode protecting your chargers from eachother.
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Re: Building an EV more efficient than walking
Saladin, where did that table come from, seems rather biased in the sense it refers to Teslas and Nissan Leafs but also to 1950's Boeing 727
Re: Building an EV more efficient than walking
Tinternet Paul.
Yurp I know what you mean right, there's a bittova bang of fanboy offit.
Why two electric cars, only one Petrol car but no Diesel?
The planet is 70% water and where's the sailboat (should be top the fuel is free unless you add hauling sails on deck)?
If a human made it, it's biased. That includes AI.
Yurp I know what you mean right, there's a bittova bang of fanboy offit.
Why two electric cars, only one Petrol car but no Diesel?
The planet is 70% water and where's the sailboat (should be top the fuel is free unless you add hauling sails on deck)?
If a human made it, it's biased. That includes AI.