Storage Heaters

Air source, ground source and associated systems for heating homes
AGT
Posts: 983
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:26 am

Re: Storage Heaters

#401

Post by AGT »

Fitted and on test for a few hours….
Another one for Nowty’s energy storage list.
That makes 2x 1740watt units and 4x870 watt units.
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nowty
Posts: 5779
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 2:36 pm
Location: South Coast

Re: Storage Heaters

#402

Post by nowty »

AGT wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 6:48 pm Fitted and on test for a few hours….
Another one for Nowty’s energy storage list.
That makes 2x 1740watt units and 4x870 watt units.
I’ll have some catching up to do when I finally get home. :facepalm:
18.7kW PV > 109MWh generated
Ripple 6.6kW Wind + 4.5kW PV > 26MWh generated
5 Other RE Coop's
105kWh EV storage
60kWh Home battery storage
40kWh Thermal storage
GSHP + A2A HP's
Rain water use > 510 m3
AGT
Posts: 983
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:26 am

Re: Storage Heaters

#403

Post by AGT »

This time last year, I added about £400 extra to my energy bill, additional. PV and extra storage heater saving a bit of cash now…
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Joeboy
Posts: 8087
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 4:22 pm
Location: Inverurie

Re: Storage Heaters

#404

Post by Joeboy »

AGT wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2024 2:55 pm This time last year, I added about £400 extra to my energy bill, additional. PV and extra storage heater saving a bit of cash now…
It's mildly odd in that it is difficult to compare year on year when one is running the path of ongoing upgrades. I used to judge my progress off of dropping annual NG consumption, then on rising PV generation, now we are onto PV export and that's going to be knocked out the park with the ASHP install. I draw solace that the new Victron SC & 3G will hopefully be a plateau afterwhich it is mild tweaking only.

Wouldn't change a thing, it has been an excellent learning curve which I have passed to the kids. :D

Likely at least one 800W SH will.make it's way from our place to No1 son's house and he can do the 6 hr Winter boogie on his soon to be IO tarriff.
19.7kW PV SE, VI, HM, EN & DW
Ripple 7kW WT & Gen to date 19MWh
42kWh LFPO4 storage
95kWh Heater storage
12kWh 210ltr HWT.
73kWh HI5
Deep insulation, air leak ct'd home
Zoned GCH & Hive 2
WBSx2
Low energy bulbs
Veg patches & fruit trees
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Stinsy
Posts: 2843
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:09 pm

Re: Storage Heaters

#405

Post by Stinsy »

Joeboy wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2024 6:33 pm
AGT wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2024 2:55 pm This time last year, I added about £400 extra to my energy bill, additional. PV and extra storage heater saving a bit of cash now…
It's mildly odd in that it is difficult to compare year on year when one is running the path of ongoing upgrades. I used to judge my progress off of dropping annual NG consumption, then on rising PV generation, now we are onto PV export and that's going to be knocked out the park with the ASHP install. I draw solace that the new Victron SC & 3G will hopefully be a plateau afterwhich it is mild tweaking only.

Wouldn't change a thing, it has been an excellent learning curve which I have passed to the kids. :D

Likely at least one 800W SH will.make it's way from our place to No1 son's house and he can do the 6 hr Winter boogie on his soon to be IO tarriff.
SH are great in many ways:
  • Shift usage into cheap period powered by Octopus’ generous ToU tariffs.
  • Multi-decade reliability with zero maintenance.
  • 100% efficient.
They are a really great part of the puzzle when transitioning form burning FF locally to an all-electric house while maximising offpeak:peak ratio.

However once you’ve achieved the above, the next step is to reduce the amount of off-peak electric you consume, and a HP is a really great way to do that. The 300-400% efficiency and low/slow power usage means that a HP plays nicely with a battery/inverter too.
12x 340W JA Solar panels (4.08kWp)
3x 380W JA Solar panels (1.14kWp)
5x 2.4kWh Pylontech batteries (12kWh)
LuxPower inverter/charger

(Artist formally known as ******, well it should be obvious enough to those for whom such things are important.)
User avatar
Joeboy
Posts: 8087
Joined: Mon May 31, 2021 4:22 pm
Location: Inverurie

Re: Storage Heaters

#406

Post by Joeboy »

Stinsy wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2024 7:20 pm
Joeboy wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2024 6:33 pm
AGT wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2024 2:55 pm This time last year, I added about £400 extra to my energy bill, additional. PV and extra storage heater saving a bit of cash now…
It's mildly odd in that it is difficult to compare year on year when one is running the path of ongoing upgrades. I used to judge my progress off of dropping annual NG consumption, then on rising PV generation, now we are onto PV export and that's going to be knocked out the park with the ASHP install. I draw solace that the new Victron SC & 3G will hopefully be a plateau afterwhich it is mild tweaking only.

Wouldn't change a thing, it has been an excellent learning curve which I have passed to the kids. :D

Likely at least one 800W SH will.make it's way from our place to No1 son's house and he can do the 6 hr Winter boogie on his soon to be IO tarriff.
SH are great in many ways:
  • Shift usage into cheap period powered by Octopus’ generous ToU tariffs.
  • Multi-decade reliability with zero maintenance.
  • 100% efficient.
They are a really great part of the puzzle when transitioning form burning FF locally to an all-electric house while maximising offpeak:peak ratio.

However once you’ve achieved the above, the next step is to reduce the amount of off-peak electric you consume, and a HP is a really great way to do that. The 300-400% efficiency and low/slow power usage means that a HP plays nicely with a battery/inverter too.
Once I'm up & running I'll see if we can set up a curve that benefits the overnight slots by a degree in temp on the ashp. Defo running a TRV on our bedroom rad. The rest we will let equalise. I'm interested in seeing what the ashp will modulate down to?
19.7kW PV SE, VI, HM, EN & DW
Ripple 7kW WT & Gen to date 19MWh
42kWh LFPO4 storage
95kWh Heater storage
12kWh 210ltr HWT.
73kWh HI5
Deep insulation, air leak ct'd home
Zoned GCH & Hive 2
WBSx2
Low energy bulbs
Veg patches & fruit trees
User avatar
Stinsy
Posts: 2843
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:09 pm

Re: Storage Heaters

#407

Post by Stinsy »

Joeboy wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2024 7:45 pm
Stinsy wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2024 7:20 pm
Joeboy wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2024 6:33 pm

It's mildly odd in that it is difficult to compare year on year when one is running the path of ongoing upgrades. I used to judge my progress off of dropping annual NG consumption, then on rising PV generation, now we are onto PV export and that's going to be knocked out the park with the ASHP install. I draw solace that the new Victron SC & 3G will hopefully be a plateau afterwhich it is mild tweaking only.

Wouldn't change a thing, it has been an excellent learning curve which I have passed to the kids. :D

Likely at least one 800W SH will.make it's way from our place to No1 son's house and he can do the 6 hr Winter boogie on his soon to be IO tarriff.
SH are great in many ways:
  • Shift usage into cheap period powered by Octopus’ generous ToU tariffs.
  • Multi-decade reliability with zero maintenance.
  • 100% efficient.
They are a really great part of the puzzle when transitioning form burning FF locally to an all-electric house while maximising offpeak:peak ratio.

However once you’ve achieved the above, the next step is to reduce the amount of off-peak electric you consume, and a HP is a really great way to do that. The 300-400% efficiency and low/slow power usage means that a HP plays nicely with a battery/inverter too.
Once I'm up & running I'll see if we can set up a curve that benefits the overnight slots by a degree in temp on the ashp. Defo running a TRV on our bedroom rad. The rest we will let equalise. I'm interested in seeing what the ashp will modulate down to?
HPs generally modulate down to 25% of their nameplate capacity. The stories you read in the press with people finding their HP expensive to run tend to be: oversized units cycling on and off frequently because they’re unable to modulate down low enough, and people using them like a gas boiler switching on-and-off several times a day.

It seems to me that it is best to fit an undersized HP and rely on secondary heating (log burner, resistive electric, etc.) on the very coldest days.
12x 340W JA Solar panels (4.08kWp)
3x 380W JA Solar panels (1.14kWp)
5x 2.4kWh Pylontech batteries (12kWh)
LuxPower inverter/charger

(Artist formally known as ******, well it should be obvious enough to those for whom such things are important.)
Ken
Posts: 510
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:07 am

Re: Storage Heaters

#408

Post by Ken »

"
"It seems to me that it is best to fit an undersized HP and rely on secondary heating (log burner, resistive electric, etc.) on the very coldest days."

Thats my philosphy also but the MSE does not allow it so they put in big HPs that will not modulate down enough and change rads and pipes to achieve MSE objectives for a few days a yr.

I struggle to imagine that a small HP (3-5kw) running 24/7 is not enough. That is 72-120 kwh/day! How many people use more than that ?
Come on tell me if you need more than 5kw 24/7.
Marcus
Posts: 261
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:25 pm

Re: Storage Heaters

#409

Post by Marcus »

Ken wrote: Sun Nov 10, 2024 10:59 am "
"It seems to me that it is best to fit an undersized HP and rely on secondary heating (log burner, resistive electric, etc.) on the very coldest days."

Thats my philosphy also but the MSE does not allow it so they put in big HPs that will not modulate down enough and change rads and pipes to achieve MSE objectives for a few days a yr.

I struggle to imagine that a small HP (3-5kw) running 24/7 is not enough. That is 72-120 kwh/day! How many people use more than that ?
Come on tell me if you need more than 5kw 24/7.
That's pretty much spot on. My 10.5kw grant hp if run continuously would inevitably cycle - although there is some justification in sizing a bit bigger so you can run it intermittently on TOU tariffs:- i don't actually run it that way in practice as i try to use it late morning - mid afternoon to make best use of solar and ambient temp.

I'm still looking for a way to force the grant to run at a lower delta T than 5°C to effectively run at <10kw, as this would offer some efficiency savings (eg when heating the Grant HWC the hp runs flat out at 10.5kw until 50°C, pulling >3kw in cold weather towards the top. It would be much easier to run on solar/hydro if it ran at half power as there's no real urgency in getting the water hot).
450W hydro-electric
5110W pv
1.3kw Wt2 - not yet producing
6kWh lead acid - maybe 1kwh useable
LiMnCo battery made from 2nd hand hybrid car modules 3.6kwh nominal 24v.
300lt hot water tank and two storage heaters
ASHP Grant Aerona 3 10.5kw and UFH
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Stinsy
Posts: 2843
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:09 pm

Re: Storage Heaters

#410

Post by Stinsy »

Ken wrote: Sun Nov 10, 2024 10:59 am "
"It seems to me that it is best to fit an undersized HP and rely on secondary heating (log burner, resistive electric, etc.) on the very coldest days."

Thats my philosphy also but the MSE does not allow it so they put in big HPs that will not modulate down enough and change rads and pipes to achieve MSE objectives for a few days a yr.

I struggle to imagine that a small HP (3-5kw) running 24/7 is not enough. That is 72-120 kwh/day! How many people use more than that ?
Come on tell me if you need more than 5kw 24/7.
I agree. Sizing for the worst day of the year will always be poor practice. A SH or WBS is a perfectly acceptable way to augment a HP that is sized for normal conditions.
12x 340W JA Solar panels (4.08kWp)
3x 380W JA Solar panels (1.14kWp)
5x 2.4kWh Pylontech batteries (12kWh)
LuxPower inverter/charger

(Artist formally known as ******, well it should be obvious enough to those for whom such things are important.)
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