Is A2A to be included in the BUS grant spring 2025 ?

[SporranMcDonald]

Just taking this to another level. . . . .

The money value economics of my PV+batts & A2A heatpumps are a distinctly secondary issue. The vitally important issue is that the house is now nominally "carbon-net zero" ( on the basis that I export rather more zero-carbon electricity into the grid than I import ).
Hopefully this will enable a survivable world for future generations ( - although I don't have any offspring myself ).

Unfortunately, money-value economics is defective, in that it dismally fails to cost environmental damage. Thus, it drives everyone towards great peril.
Money value economics has the overwhelming focus. Politicians dare not break this spell, because it is so deeply embedded in society.

[Stinsy]

Just taking this to another level. . . . .

The money value economics of my PV+batts & A2A heatpumps are a distinctly secondary issue. The vitally important issue is that the house is now nominally "carbon-net zero" ( on the basis that I export rather more zero-carbon electricity into the grid than I import ).
Hopefully this will enable a survivable world for future generations ( - although I don't have any offspring myself ).

Unfortunately, money-value economics is defective, in that it dismally fails to cost environmental damage. Thus, it drives everyone towards great peril.
Money value economics has the overwhelming focus. Politicians dare not break this spell, because it is so deeply embedded in society.

I disagree, the money/economics is vital.

[Ken]

Hi all,

I have a quick question on this - playing devils advocate.

I admire a lot of the installs you all have and I am working towards them too. But a key element is time of use tariffs (with or without batteries). If time of use tariffs disappeared so that there was just the simple day rate electricity all the time - how would everyone's costs stack up then?

I appreciate most are going to say that is never going to happen and there have been tariffs like economy 7 for donkeys years ..... but I am always wary of things that can be changed by a 3rd party that are outside of our control and don't want to be trapped on a one way street if the rug is pulled out from under us?

I just have a concern that as things like heat pumps (A2A or A2W) become mainstream and the country starts getting more and more large scale energy storage solutions to soak up the cheap/over production of electricity at night that there are less benefits to offering cheap electricity slots for people.

Maybe I am just getting to cynical. But I would be interested in everyone's thoughts.

If the figures all stack up without using cheap electricity slots then that would be great - and I apologise if this is covered somewhere else - I have not seen it discussed.

what if, what if pigs could fly.

Time of use tariffs will be around for ever as they are THE central part of going renewable leccy.
The consumption of leccy at night is some 65% of consumption during the day. The lower demand at night leaves more than enough for all the EVs and HPs you want. However if you dont offer cheap rates at night to encourage EV and HP consumption then the country would have to invest in more power production and transmission at considerable cost.

PV and batt prices are at very low no brainer prices.

Best advise is stop reading the Daily Mail rubbish and start listening to what people are doing here and putting their money down.

[cojmh]

what if, what if pigs could fly.

Time of use tariffs will be around for ever as they are THE central part of going renewable leccy.
The consumption of leccy at night is some 65% of consumption during the day. The lower demand at night leaves more than enough for all the EVs and HPs you want. However if you dont offer cheap rates at night to encourage EV and HP consumption then the country would have to invest in more power production and transmission at considerable cost.

PV and batt prices are at very low no brainer prices.

Best advise is stop reading the Daily Mail rubbish and start listening to what people are doing here and putting their money down.

Hi Ken,

I am not sure if you were deliberately trying to be rude to me (and if so for what reason) but I don't read the Daily Mail and I also think you might have missed the point of my question.

Joeboy certainly touched on it, Resybaby definitely understood what I meant.

There are different ways to achieve an outcome and as a person with finite resources I have to make the sums balance (especially as I was forced down one particular route recently). By lower consumption (as Joeboy and others said) you reduce the need and the carbon footprint in all scenarios. By taking advantage of benefits currently in the energy market now you can reduce cost.

Depending on what is cheaper (or physically easier) to do (reduce consumption or invest in the ability to take advantage of current tariffs etc.) will guide people in general and I think I am asking a legitimate question here with no ulterior motives other than learning and making my own plans.

Like Resybaby - I am suspicious of the way the government changes stuff - quite often retrospectively and I think evaluating a worst case scenario of what if TOU tariffs disappear is not that far fetched. It may never happen .... but it might?

On the other hand if someone with real world data were to say from their direct experience actually my consumption would have broken even financially even if I was paying the price cap rate .... then it would say that there is little to no risk (based on a good/sensible install).

I hope that makes sense and I hope that I have adequately explained so that you don't think I am some troll trying to cause an issue.

[cojmh]

Just taking this to another level. . . . .

The money value economics of my PV+batts & A2A heatpumps are a distinctly secondary issue. The vitally important issue is that the house is now nominally "carbon-net zero" ( on the basis that I export rather more zero-carbon electricity into the grid than I import ).
Hopefully this will enable a survivable world for future generations ( - although I don't have any offspring myself ).

Unfortunately, money-value economics is defective, in that it dismally fails to cost environmental damage. Thus, it drives everyone towards great peril.
Money value economics has the overwhelming focus. Politicians dare not break this spell, because it is so deeply embedded in society.

Hi SporranMcDonald,

I personally applaud your view on this and think it is very noble ..... I hope one day to achieve this approach.

However, at the current time it is important for me (and probably/possibly a lot of other people) to be guided by getting the best "bang for our buck" in the order we do things.

But as I say .... definitely a good way to look at the future for everyone.

[Stinsy]

Hi all,

I have a quick question on this - playing devils advocate.

I admire a lot of the installs you all have and I am working towards them too. But a key element is time of use tariffs (with or without batteries). If time of use tariffs disappeared so that there was just the simple day rate electricity all the time - how would everyone's costs stack up then?

I appreciate most are going to say that is never going to happen and there have been tariffs like economy 7 for donkeys years ..... but I am always wary of things that can be changed by a 3rd party that are outside of our control and don't want to be trapped on a one way street if the rug is pulled out from under us?

I just have a concern that as things like heat pumps (A2A or A2W) become mainstream and the country starts getting more and more large scale energy storage solutions to soak up the cheap/over production of electricity at night that there are less benefits to offering cheap electricity slots for people.

Maybe I am just getting to cynical. But I would be interested in everyone's thoughts.

If the figures all stack up without using cheap electricity slots then that would be great - and I apologise if this is covered somewhere else - I have not seen it discussed.

I had solar and batteries for a few years before I could get a smart meter to access ToU tariffs.

Just after lockdon people were doing battery-only installs (without solar). I explained to several that if ToU disappeared then their system would be entirely ornimental. However as we move away from load-tracking gas towards wind, ToU tarifs are very likely to be safe. However the payoff is so quick you don't have to worry too much about what'll happen in 20 years time.

Here are some sums:
- 14kWh of batteries and an inverter are about £2k.
- Charge up with 12.6kWh of electric at 7p/kWh and discharge 11.3kWh do displace peak electric at 25p/kWh makes £1.94 per day of profit.
- That is £709 a year of profit (about 35%). So you're in profit in less than 3 years.

However there is more! You charge the batteries when power is free. And you discharge the batteries when there are saving sessions. Obviously this is all hard to calculate. But with a teeny bit of effort you'd be in profit after 2 years.

[resybaby]

Lot of messing about and monitoring for a year though Stinsy, for what is effectively less than two months of my council tax.
As much as i hate paying the extorbitant tax i do whilst getting less and less for it, i just couldnt be bothered personally.

Ironically its one of those situations whereas the savings would definately be benificial for some folk, as any savings are worth having if pennies are tight, unfortunately its generally those folk who dont have the equipment in the first place due to capital cost.

[cojmh]

I had solar and batteries for a few years before I could get a smart meter to access ToU tariffs.

Just after lockdon people were doing battery-only installs (without solar). I explained to several that if ToU disappeared then their system would be entirely ornimental. However as we move away from load-tracking gas towards wind, ToU tarifs are very likely to be safe. However the payoff is so quick you don't have to worry too much about what'll happen in 20 years time.

Here are some sums:
- 14kWh of batteries and an inverter are about £2k.
- Charge up with 12.6kWh of electric at 7p/kWh and discharge 11.3kWh do displace peak electric at 25p/kWh makes £1.94 per day of profit.
- That is £709 a year of profit (about 35%). So you're in profit in less than 3 years.

However there is more! You charge the batteries when power is free. And you discharge the batteries when there are saving sessions. Obviously this is all hard to calculate. But with a teeny bit of effort you'd be in profit after 2 years.

Hi Stinsy,

That is great and makes a great deal of sense.

What I am more worried about is switching heating to A2A or A2W on the basis that it only makes financial sense when TOU exists.

For me if the sums balance based on no TOU then all is good with making the jump (and all of the pre-work needed). If they are close then again low risk. If they become wildly more expensive then it gives pause for thought.

That is the balance I am trying to work out and for each person the balance will be different.

Thanks

[Stinsy]

Hi Stinsy,

That is great and makes a great deal of sense.

What I am more worried about is switching heating to A2A or A2W on the basis that it only makes financial sense when TOU exists.

For me if the sums balance based on no TOU then all is good with making the jump (and all of the pre-work needed). If they are close then again low risk. If they become wildly more expensive then it gives pause for thought.

That is the balance I am trying to work out and for each person the balance will be different.

Thanks

I don't think it is true to say that HPs are only viable with ToU.

Gas is about 6p/kWh and Peak electric is about 25p/kWh. A gas boiler is possibly 80% efficient whereas a HP is about 350% efficient.

That makes gas heating cost 7.5p/kWh of heat output and a HP cost about 7.1p/kWh of heat output (at peak prices). So a HP is financially viable even on peak electric. However if you're running your HP on timeshifted ToU electric then the heat is as good as free!

[Mart]

Hi all,

I have a quick question on this - playing devils advocate.

I admire a lot of the installs you all have and I am working towards them too. But a key element is time of use tariffs (with or without batteries). If time of use tariffs disappeared so that there was just the simple day rate electricity all the time - how would everyone's costs stack up then?

I appreciate most are going to say that is never going to happen and there have been tariffs like economy 7 for donkeys years ..... but I am always wary of things that can be changed by a 3rd party that are outside of our control and don't want to be trapped on a one way street if the rug is pulled out from under us?

I just have a concern that as things like heat pumps (A2A or A2W) become mainstream and the country starts getting more and more large scale energy storage solutions to soak up the cheap/over production of electricity at night that there are less benefits to offering cheap electricity slots for people.

Maybe I am just getting to cynical. But I would be interested in everyone's thoughts.

If the figures all stack up without using cheap electricity slots then that would be great - and I apologise if this is covered somewhere else - I have not seen it discussed.

I see your point, but Stinsy beat me to the punchline, as the COP should balance out the cost difference. Even being a bit negative and giving gas every advantage, I think the worst I can come up with is 0.9 for gas efficiency, and 2.5 for HP's (I think the UK average SCOP is 2.9). So that means we can cut the leccy price by ~2.8x for a fairer comparison.

Will cheap rate go, or rise in price, perhaps, but the best way for the UK to reach net-zero, is to include an economic amount of overcapcity, and wind does do better in the winter (when we'll need that HP energy), and evening, night, morning, which should work well for BEV charging.

I'd also suggest that leccy is overpriced at the moment due to demand issues (invasion of Ukraine), and leccy pricing methods in the UK, so it should decline once the supply/demand for gas in Europe is sorted (before 2030?) Also, gas is perhaps underpriced, given the emissions v's leccy emissions falling. There's also the chance that many/most of the green initiative costs that apply to leccy, may be moved over to gas, again due to the fact that leccy emissions are falling.

Trivial issue, but GCH probably consumes around 50-100W for the pump, so if running for 12hrs, that's 600Wh+, which would produce a nice 1.5kWh(t)+.


All my opinion, but hopefully based on info that is largely correct. So the problem isn't the cost of the fuel, but the high cost of transitioning properties that are already built. That's where the £7.5k grant kicks in, which I think is very reasonable. I've heard a few people getting quotes of ~£8k, so paying £500. Didn't work for me, and I expect many others, but that's more about the technicalities and form checking (ticking). I fully believe that an £8k system would work perfectly for me.

Again only my opinion, but this is a 'green site', so I feel that those that can afford it, should be willing to pay a bit more if necessary to reduce CO2(e) emissions, and I'm personally in the lucky position where I can afford it, and enjoy 'the game'. But for the larger majority of the public, I appreciate that costs are crucial.