"Net Billing" in MA

[Joeboy]

I bet you're glad you got that off your chest?

Not really.
But i hope you take it in how it was meant.
I think you have, rather than seeing it as an attack of some sort. I may have replied to you specifically, but it is an answer to all of what has been said on this thread.

I have had my fair share of people telling me i am feckless and lazy when i need to use a mobility scooter for example.
Its easy to point at people and say they arent doing enough when we assume that is the case. Its alot harder to try and grasp how fragile some peoples lives are, especially when they hide it.

The government do at least try and help those on low incomes here. The Eco schemes are designed to help out in such a way, but not everyone qualifies of course.
And the state of my install that the previous owner has done under the eco4 scheme shows that it is not always to the benefit of the intended recipient either.
I was actually quite appalled that the guy had the upgrades done to the house at taxpayers expense, then sold the house 1 month after they were completed.
It didnt stop us buying, but the pure cheek astounded me.
The plus is he not only didnt get a higher price for the house, which i expect was the intended outcome, he also wasnt able to benefit from whatever benefits there were.

As stinsy says there are people who game the system and take the biscuit. But it is always worth remembering there are genuinely struggling people out there.
I imagine it is a lot worse where the op was alluding to with the net billing scenario.

Ah well...I don't as a rule see much as attacks. Everyone has a life and a view. That's the nice thing about this place, all sorts of folk, all sorts of life experience.

[Fintray]

I always thought that net billing would be great to have and not need to use batteries though, like you said they're handy in a power cut.

To which our area is currently having one!

[AE-NMidlands]

I always thought that net billing would be great to have and not need to use batteries, though like you said they're handy in a power cut.

but isn't it in the interests of supply companies and the grid (i.e. in the National Interest) for those of us who can to help by reducing peak loads, plus mopping up a bit of surplus when there is more power available than needed?
I can see that sharing with us a bit of the money saved on the grid upgrades is a bribe that benefits both sides...

[Fintray]

I always thought that net billing would be great to have and not need to use batteries, though like you said they're handy in a power cut.

but isn't it in the interests of supply companies and the grid (i.e. in the National Interest) for those of us who can to help by reducing peak loads, plus mopping up a bit of surplus when there is more power available than needed?
I can see that sharing with us a bit of the money saved on the grid upgrades is a bribe that benefits both sides...

I'm sure it must be as we are importing during the low demand periods and reducing the load in the high demand periods with the possibility of making a bit on the side.

[cojmh]

Very interesting and valid discussion ..... Ironically I think both sides are right in their views but for different subsets of people. I think the key is not to judge if you don't intimately know the individual situation (as already pointed out by others).

I think fundamentally though the world that we live in is geared towards making us all consumers and extracting money out of us. There are pretty much zero institutions out there to benefit us through benevolence and we have to realise this - I don't think a lot of people do.

The only way to try and break the cycle - particularly for those who have fewer resources is to consume as little as possible that you do not generate yourself. This reduces what you spend but also reduces your future liability when things change.

People point out Octopus as doing great things (and they are) but they are fundamentally a company that is there for the benefits of the shareholder. Currently their objectives align with some of us and that is good while it lasts - but the real question is will it last and for how long?

So whilst you can currently game the system with batteries and export .... the safer longer term approach (in my opinion) is to just reduce external consumption (either by generating more or consuming less) and I think this would generally work for the vast majority that are not restricted by medical needs.

For those that do have medical needs then unfortunately the world is not fair and we as individuals should try to be understanding if we can.

[Krill]

This viewpoint cannot be a fair representation for the cohort of renters who are not allowed to invest in (household) solar.

Exactly what i was going to say.
Or those who live in flats, or leasehold properties where such is impossible or forbidden.
Or those who either live with or were forced onto prepay meters.

It isnt so much that solar panels are cheap right now. And even that is debatable for people on the lowest incomes.
A solar panel with no inverter is as much use as a choclate teapot.
It may be £55 for the cheapest panel, but delivery is then added. And that does no good when you need a spark to fit and register an inverter to make the thing work in the first place.

You also only see the benefit of solar with no battery if you are using power when it is day time. Which is when the majority of people are in work.

I'll say again, balcony solar is an option. My personal skint scenario would be an Enphase M215 micro inverter and a 250W panel. I'd wait & watch the market until I saw them at the right secondhand price point (i've done it before)! The enphase gets delivered, I wait for a panel local and go on my bike to collect it or just walk. I hook them up in the garden on a couple of sawn pallets I got for free (back out on the4 bike again). I tag it back to the AC in my house and go to work. The panel takes care of part background load while i work. Of course there are thousands of scenarios when this doesn't work. Maybe instead i buy a 100W folding solar panel with 5V output and stick it in a window 4 floors up? Or maybe I move home?

Apathy is a choice as are all the excuses not to. Dangerous ground that I avoid like the plague. I don't believe in sitting waiting for permission from another walking bag of calcium & water. See the goal, make the path towards it. Get the job done.

As to poor v's rich? I give as much of a hoot for the poor as they do for me. In saying that, when in Africa a week or so ago I identified the workers who would go that extra wee bit, some for pride of job and some in hope for a tip. I appreciate that and went around giving every person who had done that wee bit extra a bung. A few quid that meant nothing to me in the greater scheme but I was hugged, hand shaken, huge smiles. My personal fave was the gardener, nobody bungs the gardener, they're just there getting it done, keeping it immaculate.

I bunged the gardener, what a look of surprise! In this small way I hope to encourage a good work attitude. Who knows where it will end up?

I encourage this in my children too. Work hard, take responsibility for your actions, show gratitude, don't let anyone take a liberty and don't take a liberty, don't try, do. Daughter in particular didn't like this and says i'm too harsh (she has a point). The thing is though, when push comes to shove and it matters in her life guess which behavior emerges and she goes forward a winner? No1 son? Its in the bone.

Mike, any photos of your setup? Did you allude to having hydro where you are?

On a phone so I'll be brief.

Balcony solar should be an area which is legal, but it isn't and can be grounds for eviction. I'll argue til I'm blue in the face that nationally we should be shoving solar panels and batteries every where that we can, but in relation to the cohort I'm looking at and work with, doing what you suggest would leave them homeless. And it is not a small group.

Therefore I cannot agree that some of these options are viable in these specific cohorts. Yes for home owners, and I agree with the goal and process generally (self reliance, reduced consumption, toiling through literal shit and piss to get where I am today), but for some, the rules screw them over.

As an aside, I've rented a flat that had no garden access and no way to hang solar panels without causing damage to the building (leasehold), and couldn't get permission to even hang a painting. The scenario you've described has several prerequisites, but a better way to look at it is that the cost of energy (and investments in this area) are likely to have a pay back way beneath saving for a deposit.

Home ownership for all would be a fantastic goal. Shame there aren't enough properties in the country to do you it though.

[Krill]

You don’t do anyone any favours by pretending that their circumstances are not of their own making.

Before I respond Stinsy, I want to confirm that last line is what you truly believe when you say "Anyone"?

[Joeboy]

Just spotted this, what's the odds!

The solution is not meant as a 1 stop shop but a single workable scenario from many. As to the renting market/ mortgage. The route when I was growing up was buy a cheap flat in a low end area and work like hell to add value to it and your career, sell up and move on. I'd expect that to still be a working solution? Working like hell to me is 60 to 100hr weeks every week. People might do more these days if it's even harder to grow a deposit? Thats what i did though and set myself the goal of slaughtering the mortgage.




"The scenario you've described has several prerequisites, but a better way to look at it is that the cost of energy (and investments in this area) are likely to have a pay back way beneath saving for a deposit."

Really? Likely or has?

The gulf of understanding between those two words can be vast.

Being generous, let's say 100W per for an 8 hour day. Let's round it up to 6kWh per week? That's more than a quid a week, maybe £1.50? 36wk payback at £1.50. Tell me again about likely... Good luck with building a deposit Krill. There's advice in what I've written here.

[AGT]

I wasn’t given any money/ advice from my parents
So I’m making sure my kids get a good financial education to value things, and we have open honest discussions about
Money, savings, pensions, work ethics, hard work, the options a good education can give etc

[Stinsy]

Very interesting and valid discussion ..... Ironically I think both sides are right in their views but for different subsets of people. I think the key is not to judge if you don't intimately know the individual situation (as already pointed out by others).

I think fundamentally though the world that we live in is geared towards making us all consumers and extracting money out of us. There are pretty much zero institutions out there to benefit us through benevolence and we have to realise this - I don't think a lot of people do.

The only way to try and break the cycle - particularly for those who have fewer resources is to consume as little as possible that you do not generate yourself. This reduces what you spend but also reduces your future liability when things change.

People point out Octopus as doing great things (and they are) but they are fundamentally a company that is there for the benefits of the shareholder. Currently their objectives align with some of us and that is good while it lasts - but the real question is will it last and for how long?

So whilst you can currently game the system with batteries and export .... the safer longer term approach (in my opinion) is to just reduce external consumption (either by generating more or consuming less) and I think this would generally work for the vast majority that are not restricted by medical needs.

For those that do have medical needs then unfortunately the world is not fair and we as individuals should try to be understanding if we can.

I agree.

When people were installing battery-only systems I counselled that they could be made into paperweights at the whim of the energy companies. Solar-only is similar (but not as bad), it wasn’t long ago that you got pennies for your export so self-consumption was the game.

Solar and batteries insulates you from the vagaries of the market. They work excellently together even if the economics of one outweighs the other.