UK Wind Record

[dan_b]

Think of Norway as a giant pumped hydro storage facility. That's not far from the truth!

[AE-NMidlands]

except that https://www.hydropower.org/country-profiles/norway says

Hydropower installed capacity: 32,671 MW (2019)
Pumped storage installed capacity: 1,439 MW (2019)

which isn't a very high proportion, and in 2017 https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles ... ttery-pack said

New research casts doubt on the view that pumped hydro power could allow Norway to act as battery pack for other parts of Europe.

Dr. Björn Peters, a German energy investor turned researcher, says that even though Norway’s hydro capacity is “huge,” most of it is in fact needed to power Norway.

“Theoretically, Norwegian electricity storage would be sufficient to compensate for the fluctuations in solar and wind energy in Germany, even if Germany was supplied solely by sun and wind energy,” he said.

“However, since 2002 an average of about 44 terawatt-hours had to be stored between the summer and winter in Norway. The lowest and highest filling levels of the reservoir lakes were [between] about 15 terawatt-hours and slightly over 77 terawatt-hours.”

This means nearly all the country’s 82 terawatt-hours of storage was used by Norwegians, Peters said.

[Mart]

Think of Norway as a giant pumped hydro storage facility. That's not far from the truth!

I read an interesting article about 5yrs+ ago, about the PHS potential of Norway. But I can't find it / remember it now.

I think the two main takeaways where that Norway had around 20GW of additional easy(ish) hydropower potential if they build out more dams and the electrical grid. And that with the addition of catchment lagoons below many of their existing hydro facilities, they'd have vast PHS potential.

However, Norway doesn't need this additional capacity/storage, so it would really be down to Europe as a whole to decide whether to help finance this, or make the PHS valueable enough for Norway to invest.

I don't think this was part of Desertec, but perhaps it might have been (damn memory), I only mention Desertec as part of that idea was that Norway would be 'the batteries', hence why I'm linking the PHS expansion in my brain. And purely my thoughts, but with greater interconnector capacity between the UK and Norway, then excess offshore wind plus storage would work well and assist all of Europe to gain higher RE penetration.


Edit - Having typed 20GW the figure was playing on my mind, so I Googled it + Norway and may have found the article, or similar, to what I was thinking about. But it's 7yrs old, and was suggesting a 7yr build, so that's not good then regarding progress (yet?):

Norway Could Provide 20,000MW of Energy Storage to Europe

A nationwide 20-gigawatt pumped hydro energy storage project sounds expensive, requiring a massive amount of new infrastructure. But that's not necessarily so, says Vereide and his colleagues, because the 20 gigawatts of storage could be created by simply modifying existing plants whose reservoirs currently fill up and drain slowly over time, depending on ice melt, rainfall and other seasonal factors. These upgrades would allow them to be filled and drained much more rapidly, in order to meet the needs of commercially viable energy storage.

Vereide claims that it would cost around €6 billion ($6.6 billion) to refit the 20 existing plants needed and to supply the necessary grid connections. Basically, he calculates €300 million ($328 million) to ensure 1,000 megawatts for each of 20 existing hydropower plants, plus the same amount of money again for adequate connection to the Norwegian grid. What this amount doesn’t include is the price tag for additional interconnectors to strengthen links between Norway and the rest of Europe, however -- which would be essential for the scheme to fly.

[Ken]

My understanding is that Norway is acting like pumped storage but the difference is it has vast hydro. It may well be that Norway hydro supply = Norway demand on a annual basis but..

When the rest of the EU is producing excess from the RE (both now and in the future) eg Germany PV, Denmark and UK excess wind this is exported at low price to Norway and substitutes them using their hydro. This saved hydro is then later sold back to the EU at higher price just like pumped hydro.

Interconnectors with Norway seem to total 5.2GW (50% of demand) with 3.5GW from south to north Norway. At this time S. Norway is importing 22% of its demand from Germany.

I also suspect that Norway has excess hydro in winter and regularly has to spill so in sync with winter demand. I am also sure this is why Norway threw so much support at EVs and now have 90% sales.

[CrofterMannie]

Public opinion in Norway may yet become a factor in how willing Norway is to further integrate their grid with other countries.

As far as I understand all domestic supplies in Norway are variable rate with prices changing hourly depending on the wholesale price - it is common to hear "is good it's raining as that will make electricity cheaper tomorrow". One impact of this is that the average consumer is far more aware of the wholesale power market than 99% of people in the UK.

Twice in the last 2 days I've had random work colleagues (I'm working in Norway) comment on the new cables to the UK and Germany (and I've heard it several times in the past too). There is significant public opinion that blames (some) of the recent price rises in these interconnectors. Public opinion may end up preventing further development of Norway as Europe's battery. There is a growing feeling that domestic consumers are paying to reduce the costs for overseas customers, and that public opinion may end up having political consequences.

It's worth noting that the business case for the interconnectors, as they are now, clearly states that they expect the interconnectors to raise the price of electricity for Norwegians as they become exposed to higher priced European markets -only by a few ore but an increase all the same.

It's also worth noting that Norwegians are much more dependent than most on electricity (consumption per capita is 23500 kwhr/year, for comparison UK is 4400kwhr/yr) so a 1penny rise in price per unit across Europe costs the average Norwegians pocket 5 times what the same rise would cost a UK resident.

[Ken]

Good point there. I guess if you are the cheapest country to produce electricity then interconnectors can only increase the price but dont you think the increase demand from EVs as an effect?

I guess one has to balance the whole like considering the saving on fossil fuel for transport against the increase in cost of leccy.
And then someone must be making money by acting as 2 way storage.

I suspect that like the UK the country is investing in green ways eg subsidising cars, infrastructure and even new dams i think. The public/consumer always pays and it has always been so. When a power station station needs maintenance/overall/replacement then the public/tax payer pays.

From Wiki
"In some years, a combination of high power prices in the market and less than usual rainfall renders the power system more vulnerable to power shortages. So far consumers in Norway have noted this by paying a higher price for electrical power during winter, however still a low price in international terms. Copious snow- and rain-fall in the mild winters of 2013-15 led to sharply lower prices, which was 26.7 øre per kWh in 2015.[21]

New connections to other countries could stabilize available power levels and reduce price swings, however as these areas are more expensive, average price may rise in Norway. Grid strengthening may cost a few billion kroner.[22] "

I believe that interconnectors create a stronger,more reliable grid and everybody benefits but it nust be paid for.

I bet the complainers live in the cities and never had problems.

[Ken]

Happy new yr everybody.

What a nice present for New Year. Wind over 50% but curtailed, the interconnectors exporting all the FF are producing, Octopus Agile gone negative

[Stinsy]

Happy new yr everybody.

What a nice present for New Year. Wind over 50% but curtailed, the interconnectors exporting all the FF are producing, Octopus Agile gone negative

I wonder how many people are still on agile?

[AE-NMidlands]

Happy new yr everybody.

What a nice present for New Year. Wind over 50% but curtailed, the interconnectors exporting all the FF are producing, Octopus Agile gone negative

It is a happy new year!
Where do you find out if wind is being curtailed? I see that pumped storage is doing nothing just now, so I guess they must be full up...
A

[Mart]

Happy new yr everybody.

What a nice present for New Year. Wind over 50% but curtailed, the interconnectors exporting all the FF are producing, Octopus Agile gone negative

Wow Ken, 3.7GW of export to mainland Europe, and only 22GW of demand at the moment. Everyone else still in bed?