how much energy is wasted driving a petrol car

[AGT]

I am at a loss to know how the cost of a car EV or ICE has anything to do with the point i was making.

If you look at Autotrader there is 53 cars under£3K and 160 under £4K and thats just in autotrader. So your son could have had a better smoother performing car that would cost nothing to run except leccy , but no he is saddled with something that is going to need maintenance.

My first EV cost £4K, i ran it for 4yrs and it literally cost me nothing except for home charging leccy.

It is true though that the older EVs are not really up to long journeys but then that would not have stopped me at 18 yrs.

Regardless the modern youth are spoiled - just to have any car.

You mentioned petrol prices and EV’s apologies for replying to a thread.

Not everyone has access to charging points when they want them, my village has 2 chargers at the local sports centre at 40p per kWh so probably nearer 4 times more expensive than someone on an EV tariff

The insurance for an EV for a 17 was prohibitive indeed £3k for a sub 1 litre car was , however that’s needed to get to work, from work place A to B and maybe C then home so even my EV wouldn’t be suitable.” For that role.

So I’m sure everyone would like an EV, but it’s still not an option for a lot of people for various reasons, that’s all I was saying.

[Moxi]

I am at a loss to know how the cost of a car EV or ICE has anything to do with the point i was making.

If you look at Autotrader there is 53 cars under£3K and 160 under £4K and thats just in autotrader. So your son could have had a better smoother performing car that would cost nothing to run except leccy , but no he is saddled with something that is going to need maintenance.

My first EV cost £4K, i ran it for 4yrs and it literally cost me nothing except for home charging leccy.

It is true though that the older EVs are not really up to long journeys but then that would not have stopped me at 18 yrs.

Regardless the modern youth are spoiled - just to have any car.

You mentioned petrol prices and EV’s apologies for replying to a thread.

Not everyone has access to charging points when they want them, my village has 2 chargers at the local sports centre at 40p per kWh so probably nearer 4 times more expensive than someone on an EV tariff

The insurance for an EV for a 17 was prohibitive indeed £3k for a sub 1 litre car was , however that’s needed to get to work, from work place A to B and maybe C then home so even my EV wouldn’t be suitable.” For that role.

So I’m sure everyone would like an EV, but it’s still not an option for a lot of people for various reasons, that’s all I was saying.

Hi AGT,

Agreed, there are a lot of EV's in the second hand market at an affordable price, but as you say that doesnt give the full picture for everyone, but for a lot of people who (like me) were not aware of how the second hand market has progressed for EV's it could be a better option and if they did migrate then such a lot of inefficiencies in the ice fuel route would be negated giving a compound improvement to the environment. Insurance needs to be addressed at government level because it does feel like the EV market is being exploited especially when you can get an EV for£1,800 pounds so why should you pay more insurance than the car is worth especially when you consider that most EV cars generally come with enhanced safety features.

Ken, thanks for the original post I hadn't really ever stopped to consider the hidden production and transport costs for fuel to power ICE, its a bit like the hidden costs for nuclear power in terms of magnitude and environmental damage.

Moxi

[Mart]

Not everyone can afford an EV though!

Very true, but not everyone can afford an ICEV.

Given that the TCO of a BEV is now similar to that of an ICEV, possibly better for a cheaper SH BEV, as maintenance costs for the ICEV will be rising, I'm not sure that the issue is relevant.

We need to move transportation away from extremely inefficient FF use, and on to more efficient leccy consumption, which itself is moving off FF's too.

It may not be perfect for everyone yet, but that's just part of a natural transition. Afterall, not only were there no petrol stations when cars began to rollout, but there wasn't even a petrol industry. Petrol was a waste product from kerosene production.

[MikeNovack]

It may not be perfect for everyone yet, but that's just part of a natural transition. Afterall, not only were there no petrol stations when cars began to rollout, but there wasn't even a petrol industry. Petrol was a waste product from kerosene production.

LOL, at the very beginning, the 1886, it wasn't even what we today call petrol (which was really unavailable)..

I'm sure it was a stunt to demonstrate the device really practical on the road, but at the first scheduled public showing, Karl Benz arrived without his "car" to show. Instead his wife Bertha DROVE it there, about 120 miles, she and their teenage sons being the mechanics. It was fueled by naptha (a mix of alkanes a little lighter than octane). At the time this was sold in drugstores (chemist shops) so they were able to refuel as they went.

I say a stunt, because a little deceptive. The device wasn't really up to something like that, needed repairs along the way, She'd take broken parts to blacksmiths to repair or forge a replacement which she and her boys would install. But who back then would imagine a hausfrau could be a competent mechanic.

[Mart]

Hi Mike. I seem to recall that her road trip was usefull as it found the car was too high geared for steep hills? Should have taken a BEV instead, perhaps.

[Countrypaul]

Hi Mike. I seem to recall that her road trip was usefull as it found the car was too high geared for steep hills? Should have taken a BEV instead, perhaps.

It seems the first BEV "car" was a couple of years before that: https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/a-brie ... ctric-car/

[MikeNovack]

It was a matter of needing to develop supporting technology. Gas and Diesel engines need transmissions. Steam engines and DC electric do not. Steam engine torque pretty much independent of speed and DC series motors have torque inverse to speed. It was almost !910 before internal combustion cars caught up. An electric car was first to break 100 mph and the Stanley Steamer for a while held both top spreed and least time to do a mile from start.

It's not as if the early cars and motorbikes could have adapted the variable gearing from bicycles. THAT didn't exist till almost 1900.

[resybaby]

A factor i see (and price in myself) down here in Cornwall,is getting an EV fixed when they break.

And they all do, even if just suspension parts etc due to the crap roads.

How much is a ball joint for a Tesla? £10 for a Polo.

Im lucky in that im a good mechanic and capable of totally rebuilding (well, i was) any ICE vehicle, but i couldnt touch an EV.
The only alternatives down here are main dealers and main dealer prices, as NO local garages in my neighbourhood are set up to fix EV.

A 'cheap' Broken down/mot failure EV sat on your drive isnt 'cheap', its an ornament. Same as a cheap ICE but at least its cheap/easy to fix.

As for new EV's. Its a fact lots of folk cant afford them, or want a cheaper run around for less cash spend, or no 'long term lease pcp' arrangement.

[Stinsy]

A factor i see (and price in myself) down here in Cornwall,is getting an EV fixed when they break.

And they all do, even if just suspension parts etc due to the crap roads.

How much is a ball joint for a Tesla? £10 for a Polo.

Im lucky in that im a good mechanic and capable of totally rebuilding (well, i was) any ICE vehicle, but i couldnt touch an EV.
The only alternatives down here are main dealers and main dealer prices, as NO local garages in my neighbourhood are set up to fix EV.

A 'cheap' Broken down/mot failure EV sat on your drive isnt 'cheap', its an ornament. Same as a cheap ICE but at least its cheap/easy to fix.

As for new EV's. Its a fact lots of folk cant afford them, or want a cheaper run around for less cash spend, or no 'long term lease pcp' arrangement.

EVs require very little maintenance. Basically just the pollen filter. EVs require much fewer repairs than an ICEV too, due to fewer moving parts. Most of the repairs can be undertaken by any mechanic (eg suspension), but companies (ec Cleevely) will repair the battery system on your driveway.

So if you’re worried about the cost of maintenance or repair don’t buy an ICEV.

(Why has this thread become a mouthpiece for FF industry disinformation?)

[Moxi]

I don’t think it’s disinformation it’s people’s views and opinions and a healthy debate to see if some of these views can be changed with examples and new information- for example I hadn’t realised how cheap some BEVs had got and I am seriously considering a leaf for the MIL when her current ICE is too much for her to drive.

A 22kW would be more than enough for the trips to the supermarket and once a week Porthmadog day trips.

Resy has a fair point on parts, I had the whole rear suspension arms replaced on the RAV by my local garage - if I hadn’t been lucky enough to buy the Toyota arms etc at cost then the components would have cost more than the labour to do the job. So the second hand BEV market is catching up with arguably a bit of a hole at the top end larger battery sizes but after market parts is still to happen as far as I can see. Another example in the ICE world was cheap Chinese motorcycles - brilliant until you need a part eg a wheel rim - then it’s quite often time to buy a new bike - that ain’t environmental even if it’s reasonably economical?

Moxi