Enabling EPS DIY?

Kenny000666
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:16 am

Re: Enabling EPS DIY?

#11

Post by Kenny000666 »

I do love the topic of it being the home owners responsibility to ensure the electric setup at home is safe. I reckon 9/10 home owners have no clue. I’m sorta clued up after reading a lot, but there sure is no rule book to house ownership.

Even when I was shopping around for an electrician 2/5 electricians are like what’s a building notice, or I can’t supply a cert 😅, the other 2/5 electricians are absolute rip offs, charging like £500 for 1-2 hours work. So where is the line of getting things done properly. I carried on getting quotes until I got a decent price and someone who can sorta be trusted in 1 set of message exchanges, but for your average joe, he would probably have chosen one of the cheaper guys without asking the right questions.

Haha, digressing from OP, but yeh, I’m seeing people in electrician forums arguing about how to properly Earth when using battery backups, but of course still a niche area. So I think it’s crazy how responsibility lies with the the house owner.
Oldgreybeard
Posts: 1873
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Location: North East Dorset

Re: Enabling EPS DIY?

#12

Post by Oldgreybeard »

Kenny000666 wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:50 pm I do love the topic of it being the home owners responsibility to ensure the electric setup at home is safe. I reckon 9/10 home owners have no clue. I’m sorta clued up after reading a lot, but there sure is no rule book to house ownership.

Even when I was shopping around for an electrician 2/5 electricians are like what’s a building notice, or I can’t supply a cert 😅, the other 2/5 electricians are absolute rip offs, charging like £500 for 1-2 hours work. So where is the line of getting things done properly. I carried on getting quotes until I got a decent price and someone who can sorta be trusted in 1 set of message exchanges, but for your average joe, he would probably have chosen one of the cheaper guys without asking the right questions.

Haha, digressing from OP, but yeh, I’m seeing people in electrician forums arguing about how to properly Earth when using battery backups, but of course still a niche area. So I think it’s crazy how responsibility lies with the the house owner.

Not any different from driving a car, or anything else that carries a risk, really. Car owners are 100% responsible for ensuring that they, and their cars, are kept safe and unlikely to cause harm to themselves or others, so why should homes be any different?
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Jinx
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:16 pm

Re: Enabling EPS DIY?

#13

Post by Jinx »

Oldgreybeard wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:32 pm
Jinx wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:00 pm Afaik losing earth is far from common, but is still worth considering, most houses will be TNCS also known as PME (protective multiple earth) so whilst the earth and neutral are combined the neutral is tied down all along the supply. I think it is now recommended to add a earth rod on TNCS anyway to cover an earth break, TT systems will already be earth rod.
As for the bonding, in the event of earth break then things like outside taps could become live.
I remember reading elsewhere that there are only a few hundred faults a year where the earth/neutral becomes live as a result of a fault on the local grid. One of those unlikely sort of faults, but not much consolation if it happens to you and you get a belt from something you think should be safe to touch. Worst bit is that it's an invisible fault, things can seem to be fine, but outdoor earthed metalwork could easily kill you if there is a fault at the same time as you happen to touch it, even if that isn't that likely to happen.

Adding an extra earth electrode does nothing useful on its own, because the impedance will likely be far too high to take any appreciable earth fault current. If there's RCD protection then that mitigates the risk to some degree, but obviously an RCD won't trip if the earth coming into the home is at a high voltage, as the RCD won't see any problem.

The only 100% safe way to handle faults like this is to make sure that the incoming earth is not used at all when the back up supply is being used. Lot to be said for having a completely independent earthing system, that works no matter what happens with the grid, but it does then place a responsibility on the home owner to make sure that earthing system is always working and safe.
Rod should be under 200ohms, or Code of Practice for Earthing recommmends sub 100. RCD/RCBOs should be used anyway, ideally a type B. I don’t understand the high voltage earth, what fault condition do you mean? The RCD simply measures current balance between Phase and Neutral.
Kenny000666
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:16 am

Re: Enabling EPS DIY?

#14

Post by Kenny000666 »

Oldgreybeard wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:57 pm
Kenny000666 wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:50 pm I do love the topic of it being the home owners responsibility to ensure the electric setup at home is safe. I reckon 9/10 home owners have no clue. I’m sorta clued up after reading a lot, but there sure is no rule book to house ownership.

Even when I was shopping around for an electrician 2/5 electricians are like what’s a building notice, or I can’t supply a cert 😅, the other 2/5 electricians are absolute rip offs, charging like £500 for 1-2 hours work. So where is the line of getting things done properly. I carried on getting quotes until I got a decent price and someone who can sorta be trusted in 1 set of message exchanges, but for your average joe, he would probably have chosen one of the cheaper guys without asking the right questions.

Haha, digressing from OP, but yeh, I’m seeing people in electrician forums arguing about how to properly Earth when using battery backups, but of course still a niche area. So I think it’s crazy how responsibility lies with the the house owner.

Not any different from driving a car, or anything else that carries a risk, really. Car owners are 100% responsible for ensuring that they, and their cars, are kept safe and unlikely to cause harm to themselves or others, so why should homes be any different?
Yes agree, but you do need to do a driving test (mostly) and there’s a Highway Code, there’s also yearly MOT and a yearly service. Then you gotta tax it depending on MOT passing and most probably with valid insurance (I think? 🤔)

House owners don’t have a test, would be interesting if you need to do a yearly EICR like an MOT. I know landlords have that obligation depending on which borough they are in. I had to do a landlord exam, get a cert and do EICR to continue renting a flat to my mother in law, but that was 4 years ago and there’s no mandate to recertify (as of yet)
Jinx
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:16 pm

Re: Enabling EPS DIY?

#15

Post by Jinx »

Kenny000666 wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:21 pm I had to do a landlord exam, get a cert and do EICR to continue renting a flat to my mother in law, but that was 4 years ago and there’s no mandate to recertify (as of yet)
Every 5 years for landlords EICR.
Oldgreybeard
Posts: 1873
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:42 pm
Location: North East Dorset

Re: Enabling EPS DIY?

#16

Post by Oldgreybeard »

Kenny000666 wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:21 pm Yes agree, but you do need to do a driving test (mostly) and there’s a Highway Code, there’s also yearly MOT and a yearly service. Then you gotta tax it depending on MOT passing and most probably with valid insurance (I think? 🤔)

House owners don’t have a test, would be interesting if you need to do a yearly EICR like an MOT. I know landlords have that obligation depending on which borough they are in. I had to do a landlord exam, get a cert and do EICR to continue renting a flat to my mother in law, but that was 4 years ago and there’s no mandate to recertify (as of yet)
There's a fair bit of merit in ensuring that everyone is aware of their obligations to keep themselves, their family and anyone that visits their home safe. We've really had no problem in doing this with gas, pretty much everyone with mains or bottled/tanked gas knows the risks and takes care to ensure their installation is safe. The real problem is that there is nothing like the "Gas Safe" (a.k.a Corgi) safety scheme for electricity. There is no legal requirement for any electrician to have done any formal training or be demonstrably competent, other than the Part P provisions, and they are only a tiny part of the full range of work electricians undertake. Anyone can set themselves up in business as an electrician and do non-Part P work, if they happen to live in Scotland then they can do any work at all (as Part P doesn't exist there).

There have been calls to make electricians as responsible for safe work as Gas Safe engineers, but so far those calls have fallen on deaf ears. I can perfectly legally go and do non-Part P work in anyone's home, to any standard that I feel is OK, and I'm not breaking any laws at all. I can do work that doesn't comply with the wiring regs and there is no way I can be prosecuted for it, unless someone gets hurt. Even then, the probability of being convicted is vanishingly small, I can only recall two or three convictions over the past few years, and all were for extreme examples of very poor workmanship.

EICRs are a very good example of a regulation that is ignored by the vast majority of the population (except landlords - and they've been dragged kicking and screaming into compliance, in the main). The requirement in the wiring regs to undertake a periodic inspection at least every ten years has been there for as long as I can remember (certainly back to the 1970's). It's been ignored by the vast majority of homeowners for at least that long, too. The IET did a survey a few years ago that showed that at least a third of EICRs uncovered life-threatening major faults, and that only around 10% of electrical installations were safe, in that they had no obvious faults when inspected. Hasn't changed anything as far as I can tell, people are still ignoring the labels on consumer units telling them to test RCDs at least every 6 months or to get the installation inspected and tested at least every ten years.
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Kenny000666
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Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:16 am

Re: Enabling EPS DIY?

#17

Post by Kenny000666 »

Lol, you have to test RCDs every 6 months? Oops 🤪 Haha, no one ever told me that, just checked the RCD and Your right, it does say, in small writing! Only time it gets tested in my 10 years as a home owner is when it tripped swapping out some plug sockets. Or i guess whatever an electrician does when they are working on it.
Kenny000666
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:16 am

Re: Enabling EPS DIY?

#18

Post by Kenny000666 »

Ok, back on topic. Turned on the backup option (without a battery connected), and restarted the inverter.

Tested with a multimeter, there was no ac voltage (1v) so look like the backup setting doesn’t draw from the grid at all which is annoying.

Next test, connect the battery and simulate a power outage by switching off the MCB.
Oldgreybeard
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Location: North East Dorset

Re: Enabling EPS DIY?

#19

Post by Oldgreybeard »

Jinx wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:10 pm
Rod should be under 200ohms, or Code of Practice for Earthing recommmends sub 100. RCD/RCBOs should be used anyway, ideally a type B. I don’t understand the high voltage earth, what fault condition do you mean? The RCD simply measures current balance between Phase and Neutral.
The regs only require that the earth electrode resistance be low enough to pass sufficient earth fault current to trip the RCD, so the max value under any conditions is 1,667 ohms. The 200 ohms figure is only guidance, in the on site guide, and is set at that low a value to allow for the resistance increasing in dry weather. Obviously lower is generally better, but a supplementary rod electrode in parallel with the incoming PEN will never have a low enough resistance to prevent shock in the event of a PEN fault (even a 10 ohm electrode will exceed the safe touch voltage at only 5A of phase imbalance current trying to flow to earth - the phase imbalance current could easily be 100A or more under PEN fault conditions).

The fault condition where the incoming PEN is broken in the street (hence causing an apparent power failure) will cause the homes on the broken side of the PEN to have their earth conductors rise to a voltage above earth. This won't trip the RCD, as there is no current imbalance between line and neutral. The earth conductor could well reach a dangerous voltage under such a fault, well above the safe maximum touch voltage of 50V, due to the imbalance between phases in the street and the circulating return current going back down the lowest two phases, rather than the PEN.

This fault is normally mitigated by equipotential bonding, which ensures that all conductive parts inside the equipotential zone (i.e. indoors) are at the same potential. The fact that this potential may be a high voltage relative to the earth outdoors doesn't present a significant risk, as it's unlikely that anyone would be able to touch an "earthed" (i.e. equipotential bonded) part whilst they are standing outside and in contact with the local earth.

For this reason the earthing requirements for things that are outdoors and are not double insulated are more stringent than those indoors, and the incoming PEN cannot be relied upon to provide a safe earth for outdoor equipment, even with a supplementary local earth rod. The Type B RCD is a bit of a red herring, as that is only ever required where there is a risk of DC blinding. AFAIK, the only domestic equipment that requires a Type B RCD, or equivalent, is a car charger, because there is a very slight risk of pure DC leakage from the high voltage DC battery. Inverters normally need a Type A RCD (pulsed DC and AC capable) according to the regs, although there is a good argument that there could well be a DC leakage risk from a high voltage DC source, like solar panels (although the regs don't mandate a Type B for that application).
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Swwils
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Re: Enabling EPS DIY?

#20

Post by Swwils »

Oldgreybeard wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 9:31 pm
Jinx wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:10 pm
Rod should be under 200ohms, or Code of Practice for Earthing recommmends sub 100. RCD/RCBOs should be used anyway, ideally a type B. I don’t understand the high voltage earth, what fault condition do you mean? The RCD simply measures current balance between Phase and Neutral.
The regs only require that the earth electrode resistance be low enough to pass sufficient earth fault current to trip the RCD, so the max value under any conditions is 1,667 ohms. The 200 ohms figure is only guidance, in the on site guide, and is set at that low a value to allow for the resistance increasing in dry weather. Obviously lower is generally better, but a supplementary rod electrode in parallel with the incoming PEN will never have a low enough resistance to prevent shock in the event of a PEN fault (even a 10 ohm electrode will exceed the safe touch voltage at only 5A of phase imbalance current trying to flow to earth - the phase imbalance current could easily be 100A or more under PEN fault conditions).

The fault condition where the incoming PEN is broken in the street (hence causing an apparent power failure) will cause the homes on the broken side of the PEN to have their earth conductors rise to a voltage above earth. This won't trip the RCD, as there is no current imbalance between line and neutral. The earth conductor could well reach a dangerous voltage under such a fault, well above the safe maximum touch voltage of 50V, due to the imbalance between phases in the street and the circulating return current going back down the lowest two phases, rather than the PEN.

This fault is normally mitigated by equipotential bonding, which ensures that all conductive parts inside the equipotential zone (i.e. indoors) are at the same potential. The fact that this potential may be a high voltage relative to the earth outdoors doesn't present a significant risk, as it's unlikely that anyone would be able to touch an "earthed" (i.e. equipotential bonded) part whilst they are standing outside and in contact with the local earth.

For this reason the earthing requirements for things that are outdoors and are not double insulated are more stringent than those indoors, and the incoming PEN cannot be relied upon to provide a safe earth for outdoor equipment, even with a supplementary local earth rod. The Type B RCD is a bit of a red herring, as that is only ever required where there is a risk of DC blinding. AFAIK, the only domestic equipment that requires a Type B RCD, or equivalent, is a car charger, because there is a very slight risk of pure DC leakage from the high voltage DC battery. Inverters normally need a Type A RCD (pulsed DC and AC capable) according to the regs, although there is a good argument that there could well be a DC leakage risk from a high voltage DC source, like solar panels (although the regs don't mandate a Type B for that application).
This information is not up to date. With an EESS:

The maximum acceptable earth electrode resistance for installations operating TN-S, or in TT systems where earth fault loop impedance is not restricted to a lower value, is 200 Ω.

This is a major change in the 2nd Edition of the IET Code of Practice for Electrical Energy Storage Systems, which previously recommended a maximum of 200 Ω only for systems below 10 kVA.

They even provide a flow chart in the code of practice to make this more obvious.
Last edited by Swwils on Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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