Grid broken!

[Oldgreybeard]

Got a very, very firm "NO" from the Environment Agency. They also said no when I asked if I could use the stream as a collector for a heat pump. Really weird thing is that they immediately (as in within hours) said yes to us discharging treated sewage effluent into the stream.

That's your problem, you let someone else decide what you can do on your land ....... why on earth did you ask ? you can never do it now.............
George

It was new build, on land that had never had a house on before, so whatever I did would have had to be signed off by building control. Meant I had no choice but to ask the EA, same with things like the flood risk assessment and the height of the ground floor and car parking area above the 1 in 100 year flood level. If it hadn't been for that I'd have adopted the "easier to ask forgiveness than ask permission" principle, and would probably have got away with it. The fact that the access drive had to go over where I wanted to run the feed for the micro hydro meant this wasn't an option - the building inspector had to inspect the trench we put in to carry other services, the one I also wanted to use for the pipe from the stream.

[Moxi]

ahem! Now you're in and assuming it can be done stealthily and buried (camouflaged) out of sight of prying eyes why not install a low head system retrospectively?

You could even do it in sections over some years so it ends up as historical and therefore "permitted" - the EA probably thought you were abstracting water when they said no.

I mean if you found a run of salt glazed clay pipe that runs in the right direction whos to know after 2 years in the ground that they were not always there ?? just a thought.

If not a turbine could you use the water to run some peltier modules using the water as coolant to drive a larger delta T across the junctions?

Moxi

[Oldgreybeard]

ahem! Now you're in and assuming it can be done stealthily and buried (camouflaged) out of sight of prying eyes why not install a low head system retrospectively?

You could even do it in sections over some years so it ends up as historical and therefore "permitted" - the EA probably thought you were abstracting water when they said no.

I mean if you found a run of salt glazed clay pipe that runs in the right direction whos to know after 2 years in the ground that they were not always there ?? just a thought.

If not a turbine could you use the water to run some peltier modules using the water as coolant to drive a larger delta T across the junctions?

Moxi

Your right, it does count as abstraction by the EA, even though the water is going back into the same stream it comes out of. Same goes for a water source heat pump, I was planning to use a borehole as a heat source but that would also have needed an abstraction licence, even though the water would be going back down the same hole! Absolutely no idea why the EA class water use in this way as abstraction, but it's a major hurdle, as you need a licence to abstract more than 20,000 litres/day. There's often no apparent logic in the way these regulations have been framed.

I'd love to do it by stealth, but it would mean digging the drive up now, so would be more trouble and cost than it's worth, sadly. The additional cost of doing this work before we had a drive and when we already had a trench running alongside the stream, would have been a heck of a lot less, pretty much just the cost of some large bore piping. I regret not having at least put a big bit of concrete pipe under the drive, as had I done that the stealth approach may well have been feasible.

[nowty]

I believe abstraction (up to 20,000 litres a day) without permission is fine but its the putting the water back which is classed as discharging which they don't like even if it turns out to be the same water.

Open loop heat pump systems fall foul of this whereas closed loop are OK as long as food grade glycol is used and your not increasing any flood risk. I never asked, but they know about it now as a couple of weeks back the EA were re-surveying the culvert under my house as there had been some flooding up stream of us. Turned out to be a load of leaves covering a surface water drain.

The drove a pig through it and knocked on my door as they did not know what the pipes contained and was concerned it could be gas. I was quite impressed as they managed to drive the pig over my heat exchanger coils and then redirected it with a long grappling hook down my manhole into the outgoing pipe to continue the survey. They were happy that the full length was clear and it was just the leaves over a drain.

[Oldgreybeard]

I wonder what would have happened if they had tried to run a pig down that culvert before you discovered the pile smashed right through it?

[Stinsy]

I believe abstraction (up to 20,000 litres a day) without permission is fine but its the putting the water back which is classed as discharging which they don't like even if it turns out to be the same water.

Open loop heat pump systems fall foul of this whereas closed loop are OK as long as food grade glycol is used and your not increasing any flood risk. I never asked, but they know about it now as a couple of weeks back the EA were re-surveying the culvert under my house as there had been some flooding up stream of us. Turned out to be a load of leaves covering a surface water drain.

The drove a pig through it and knocked on my door as they did not know what the pipes contained and was concerned it could be gas. I was quite impressed as they managed to drive the pig over my heat exchanger coils and then redirected it with a long grappling hook down my manhole into the outgoing pipe to continue the survey. They were happy that the full length was clear and it was just the leaves over a drain.

I'm glad all your compression joints survived the exploits of the "pig"!

[nowty]

I'm glad all your compression joints survived the exploits of the "pig"!

It was 4 wheel drive with chucky tyres, unfortunately I never managed to get a picture of it.