UK Wind Record

[Ken]

Over the last 7 days Gas generation was 12% and Wind 46.5%

Wind does get to over 60% short term at night.

There is not enough wind to get to 100% with winter demand but add in nuclear and we could, however it is necessary to run a small amount of gas for a number of tech reasons and that broadly speaking could be 10% ish.

However because of the necessary production wind ,nuclear and gas we have to export, or/and curtail, at night to keep the grid balanced. This export is greater than our gas production so i would argue we are net zero CO2 at night.

[AE-NMidlands]

If we will always need big machines spinning for the purposes of grid stabilisation (which is my interpretation of what I have read, may be wrong) why not run some HEP for that even if it's not actually needed in addition to wind? It would be better than using a fossil fuel for the purpose.

Are there pumped storage places where some of the parallel pipes and turbines could be used to pump water back up even while some are generating? So somewhere with 4 pipes and 4 turbines could guarantee to always have one of them generating, but take surplus out of the grid with the other 3...

[Ken]

The process of substituting gas spinning reserve is already well underway with smart utility batts and synshronized generators which are big machines spinning at grid frequency but not using energy except to overcome minimal friction.

The location of this back up is very important and needs to be distributed at strategic points around the country which is very unlikely to be be where hydro exists.

[Mart]

Over the last 7 days Gas generation was 12% and Wind 46.5%

Wind does get to over 60% short term at night.

There is not enough wind to get to 100% with winter demand but add in nuclear and we could, however it is necessary to run a small amount of gas for a number of tech reasons and that broadly speaking could be 10% ish.

However because of the necessary production wind ,nuclear and gas we have to export, or/and curtail, at night to keep the grid balanced. This export is greater than our gas production so i would argue we are net zero CO2 at night.

Brilliant thought Ken. You could be right that we have hit or are close to 'net low carbon' at night.

Every little milestone is a fun one.

Maybe as wind exports increases, some of the countries with huge hydro generation (like Norway), will be able to store it ..... bear with me ...... by dialing down their hydro generation. So I appreciate these aren't PHS (pumped hydro storage), but using less of of the hydro, is a form of storage (I think). I assume this works for their expansion of wind and PV, where they already have the large scale / long term storage built in the form of that hydro.

But, putting my pedantry hat on, I also assume there are minimum (and maximum) flow levels for the rivers to be maintained, so gen has to operate within that. But hopefully you see my point.


Also, regarding frequency, I think NG(ESO) are looking into batteries doing this, also some RE generation using inverters may be able to help, but I'm not sure that's currently planned/happening? [Oops, crossed with your response.]

[AE-NMidlands]

The process of substituting gas spinning reserve is already well underway with smart utility batts and synchronized generators which are big machines spinning at grid frequency but not using energy except to overcome minimal friction.

The location of this back up is very important and needs to be distributed at strategic points around the country which is very unlikely to be be where hydro exists.

That's good to hear, thanks.
I like the idea of sending our wind-generated electrons to Norway so that them not using their HEP is a sort of (not)pumped storage.

[Mart]

The process of substituting gas spinning reserve is already well underway with smart utility batts and synchronized generators which are big machines spinning at grid frequency but not using energy except to overcome minimal friction.

The location of this back up is very important and needs to be distributed at strategic points around the country which is very unlikely to be be where hydro exists.

That's good to hear, thanks.
I like the idea of sending our wind-generated electrons to Norway so that them not using their HEP is a sort of (not)pumped storage.

But, just to be fair, it's only an idea of mine, I don't know if that's correct. I pondered it after hearing that Norway (and others, I think Sweden was one), could roll out intermittent wind and PV, and use their hydro to demand follow. Thus a form of storage, whenever hydro ramps down in response to wind and solar. [So they already have long term / large scale storage in their systems, due to having such huge hydro already. Great news for them.]

If UK leccy prices are really low, as they would be when we have excess wind, then maybe Norway (and others) would import it, and dial down hydro.

I think the idea has legs, but of course there may be 100's of other factors in play. But a nice thought.

[dan_b]

National Grid is on a trajectory to enable 100% not burning stuff on the grid when conditions allow by 2025 - ie when there's' enough wind and solar and imports to be able to actually switch off the gas and coal (and hopefully the Drax Biomass units) completely for periods of time. As mentioned, that means getting frequency stabilisation services from elsewhere rather than gas or coal-powered "spinning reserve".

[AE-NMidlands]

On the downside, the next few days look poor for wind - and sub-zero temperatures too. At least we have sunny intervals forecast, so solar should do a bit better than recently...

[openspaceman]

As mentioned, that means getting frequency stabilisation services from elsewhere rather than gas or coal-powered "spinning reserve".

Couldn't that be done by big 3ph induction motors direct coupled with massive flywheels?

[nowty]

As mentioned, that means getting frequency stabilisation services from elsewhere rather than gas or coal-powered "spinning reserve".

Couldn't that be done by big 3ph induction motors direct coupled with massive flywheels?

It can be.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... uts-energy