Ecotricity jumps the shark?

[Ken]

To make /grow anything just to burn is a very inefficient way of doing things because heat energy is the lowest form of energy to which all forms of energy migrate too.

Before we consider this idea we have to utilise our waste products in bio digesters placed close to the source of the waste. I believe Germany has many more digesters than we do.

PV on the other hand is producing high grade leccy which can be used in many different ways and as above comment energy per area of land is a huge improvement on this idea with zero running costs. Yes it may cost more at the moment (but not in the future) to use a HP over gas boiler but with eco leccy we then have zero pollution. Time of Use tariffs will ensure that HPs and EVs will not be switched on during the evening peak and thus prevent melt down of the grid.

The universal use of HPs presents difficulties because in many cases they are not suitable for retrofits of a wet system. I would fit a HP tomorrow if i did not have small bore pipes as the more i learn about HPs the more they do not work with small bore. What i do believe works and is cost effective is air/air hps again i would have one tomorrow but the wife does not like the indoor units.

The most cost effective thing to do is to cut demand and insulate.

[Mr Gus]

+1 Ken
Grow to burn is madness compared to using the pre-existing waste stream of collected green waste in the first instance.

[spread-tee]

Hard to take this idea seriously when the first sentence is just pure BS, nobody is taking away anyones boiler, and to suggest it can all be put right with grass cuttings is laughable. Sure biomass will play a part in the big scheme, but as others have already said there is a bunch of issues to sort.
As MacKay said in Without hot air even the most productive fuel crops have a pretty low energy yield per hectare so a lot of land will be needed with all the logistics problems that brings up, a lot of it could well be waste/by products but that just makes the yield even lower.

IMHO anyone who says we can replace fossils with "any particular big idea" doesn't understand the issues, we quite obviously need all ideas on the table in a holistic big picture. Lets be quite honest here we haven't even started yet.

Spread.

[Mart]

Don't forget also that the way that Dale is proposing to free up all this land for grass is by ending cattle farming and for the UK to go vegan.
Kind of seems unrealistic doesn't it?

Also, let's not forget if you're still burning stuff you're still creating NOx and PM5 particulates, so this does nothing to improve local air quality.

I wonder how long before Gridserve removes the Ecotricity bit from the Electric Highway altogether. They'll not want to be associated with that kind of baggage.

I also wonder how long Ecotricity will last in the current mass culling of the energy market suppliers?

Good point, I'd forgotten it was based on reduced/zero beef production. Have to admit I'm a hypocrite, I understand that we have to stop eating beef, there's simply no way to manage the enormous CO2(e) emissions, but I do love a nice burger, and I seem to have a faint recollection that I may have dreamt about eating a McDonalds last night.

Hopefully lab grown meat, or a better bet, insect production, will help to reduce beef consumption around the World.

The reason Ecotricity's idea interests me so much, is because I can't see the UK moving away from gas space heating fast enough, so the ability to produce some of the methane in a carbon neutral manner, whilst also benefitting the soil, seems like a win win.

I assume, yes just an assumption, that the technology is sound, since we are already using a lot of anaerobic digestion to produce methane currently, though that often gets burnt ion site for generation. And also, presumably, the idea can be scaled up rapidly. But the issue still remains, at what price, since it will need to sit within the cost of nat-gas + carbon tax to be viable, or require subsidies from the Gov. The fact that they are now building one, not 100's, does not fill me with hope.

What I do find sad, is that during the last 5(ish) years that this idea has been on the table, the Gov has not really gotten behind a true program to improve household heating efficiency, and thereby reduce the demand significantly.

So many spinning plates for this idea to work, but I'll keep my fingers crossed that it can be a valid contribution to the program.


Slight aside, I popped up to a bio-mass production facility in the S. Wales valleys yesterday. They produce wood chip and wood pellets on site, sourced form within 15-20 miles of the facility. It may seem odd, but I was on a recon mission for the cattery as we are now using about 1.5 sacks of wood pellet cat litter per day now. It used to be 0.5 bag, and at around £5.50, plus we'd get lots of broken bags etc, but now at 3x the consumption and ~£7,50 I was trying to find a way to reduce costs.

When I got there I noticed they had a 22kW charger outside, free for visitors/customers to use, which I thought was nice. Then when I went for a tour of the facility (the boss there could see how interested I was) we walked into the main warehouse, I was staring at a Porsche Taycan, his car. Gorgeous car, and when I mentioned the Tesla, we were off chatting about BEV's, renewables, bio-mass etc etc..

And the smell ............... MMMMmmmmmmmm ....... like being back in the Craft Block at school, or a shed full of wood shavings, which I suppose it technically is, just on a larger scale.

[Stinsy]

I understand that outdoor-reared grass-fed beef is carbon-negative. Lots of misinformation (from all sides) in this space.

I cannot imagine artificial meat will be the solution to any problem.

[Bugtownboy]

Is beef consumption the problem or the industrialised production of beef to maintain the fast food market. It’s not just beef, though, we’re probably over producing chicken and pork to a similar extent.

Before we look at alternative sources of protein to, effectively, maintain the fast food industry, shouldn’t we have a complete rethink about the place of ‘fast food’ in society given the harm and societal costs it creates ?

[AE-NMidlands]

Is beef consumption the problem or the industrialised production of beef to maintain the fast food market. It’s not just beef, though, we’re probably over producing chicken and pork to a similar extent.

Before we look at alternative sources of protein to, effectively, maintain the fast food industry, shouldn’t we have a complete rethink about the place of ‘fast food’ in society given the harm and societal costs it creates ?

I quite agree. By coincidence, yesterday we walked home past our local McDonald's drive-through at tea time (usually we are at home eating, of course...) The queue of cars in its approach road was back to the main road, and cars waiting to turn in had caused a back-up to the big roundabout which was about to impact on traffic past the station and on 2 other main roads.

Usually we just have to watch out for boy (and older) racers making fast manoeuvres in and out of the place as we try to walk alongside the main road. In fact we usually try to be on the opposite side at that junction.
It all has an impact on motor fuel used, plus congestion and pollution. People seem to be too pressurised ( -or too rich or too lazy) to cook for themselves nowadays. Things (expectations and attitudes) really need to change.
A

[Stinsy]

I frequently hike through land grazed by sheep and cows. It looks and feels natural and ecological, the animals look to be healthy and happy, I imagine those hills being grazed by ruminants for thousands of years and see lots of evidence of wildlife co-existing with the farm animals. Monoculture food crops notsomuch.

Chickens too *can* be raised in environmentally friendly and high-welfare conditions. But you cannot buy those chickens for £3.50 at Tesco and you don't find them in fast-food restaurants.

There is a particular organisation (which I will not name) that spends vast amounts of money pushing lies and misinformation about the meat industry and an American-led farming lobby that tries to paint a rosy picture of some of the worst factory-farming practices. So care should be taken.

However. I'll say it again: "I cannot imagine artificial meat will be the solution to any problem."

[Mart]

I understand that outdoor-reared grass-fed beef is carbon-negative. Lots of misinformation (from all sides) in this space.

I cannot imagine artificial meat will be the solution to any problem.

Yep, I should have said that my understanding is that UK produced beef isn't too bad. My comments about lab meat and insects were related to World beef production and consumption which is simply unsustainable. The US is possibly an example of just how bad things can get, with vast amounts of land being used to produce food, to feed to cows, resulting in about 1/10th the value of us just eating crops instead.

[Bugtownboy]

As with most things, too much of one thing, or an imbalance in ‘natural*’ systems is going to lead to problems.

There’s too much focus on AGW - whilst an overarching problem, we cannot escape the fact we are consuming far too many natural resources.

Rampant capitalism and continual economic growth, in my opinion, is no longer sustainable, though I cannot see anything changing even following an ecological/climatic disaster.



* Well aware that the bucolic, pastoral vision is not natural.