Will heat pumps cause blackouts?

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Saladin
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Re: Will heat pumps cause blackouts?

#31

Post by Saladin »

Mart wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 2:36 pm Kinda feel I should start arguing with you about not disagreeing with you, just to turn this into some sort of Monty Python parody. :fight:
:lol:
Moxi wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 9:19 pm On a linked thought process why don’t we have white tarmac roads to reflect the suns energy ?
I expect it's a combination of bitumen being naturally black and white paving giving people snow blindness and unwanted glare from low angles.


I believe the jury is out on whether the human race can be classified as an intelligent species but it is unequivocally demonstrable that we are both a noise and heat engine.
Yuff
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Re: Will heat pumps cause blackouts?

#32

Post by Yuff »

One would hope that a journalist for times would have done better research. Or perhaps she was paid to forget about batteries and V2H and V2G :head-bang:


Net-zero energy may leave us with no power
Relying on renewables is recklessly optimistic and fails to learn lessons of the past 14 years: we must invest in oil and gas
If you’ve flown in or out of the UK recently, perhaps you have cast a glance down at the flat, silvery-blue of the ocean and spotted somewhere an impressive array of pinprick white turbines, their heavy blades gliding airily around. What you probably didn’t notice was the boxy offshore substation servicing the plant and, inside it, the enormous diesel generator that provides the turbines with essential back-up power. What, you might wonder, does a wind farm need 20,000 litres of diesel for? Well, if the wind stops blowing, the station still requires power to keep minimum, critical functions going, even when it isn’t generating any power.
The significance of these diesel generators is not their emissions, which are marginal. What they tell us is that Labour’s plan for the British energy system, and therefore for our economy and security, has a fatal flaw. In a renewables-based system, there is currently no credible, cost-effective plan for keeping the lights on when the wind drops and the sky clouds over. This is not a theoretical problem. Although wind and solar on average generate more than a third of our electricity, they are not reliable. On the coldest day of 2022, near the height of the gas crisis, beset by still, cloudy weather, they generated less than 2 per cent of the electricity needed that day.
Labour’s “solution” is to continue running down gas production and to speed up the building of renewables. New nuclear power won’t be ready on the scale needed for at least a decade. Yet the party has promised to shrink the role of fossil fuels in electricity production to negligible levels in the next six years, while also embarking on a breakneck phase-out of combustion engine cars and gas boilers, meaning both will need to be electric instead.
Ed Miliband, back in charge of energy policy, insists this is the cheaper way to go and has vowed to halt the development of any new oil and gas fields. But his plans are based on a highly dubious set of assumptions and allow very little margin for error. He is taking exactly the same reckless approach to Britain’s energy system as we have seen fail over the past 14 years.
The greatest failure of that period, which Miliband seems dead-set on repeating, is the failure to plan and invest in a sufficient supply of firm power — that is, energy that does not rely on the vagaries of the weather. Without firm power, the economy is essentially a basket case, susceptible to the extreme price spikes we saw in 2022, rationing and, in the worst case, power cuts.
The new government’s answer to this problem, insofar as it has one, is to admit quietly that we will be relying on gas for many years to come. Labour’s manifesto promised to “maintain a strategic reserve of gas power stations to guarantee security of supply”. The problem is you cannot “maintain” a critical back-up energy supply with a throwaway line in a manifesto. Britain’s failsafe option to keep the lights on actually requires planning and investment alongside more fashionable technologies.
The government ought to be doing everything in its power to slow the decline in North Sea oil and gas production (the lowest-emission gas available to us), signing long-term contracts with big gas producers in the US and Qatar to reduce future price volatility, and lobbying internationally for Europe and other friendly regions to keep up their gas production. In other words, on all counts, we should be doing the opposite of what we are doing.
The government would no doubt counter that such efforts are not required because its rollout of renewables will be so grand and impressive that Britain’s need for gas or other such fripperies will be marginal. This is a hair-raisingly optimistic assumption.
Take the wind industry, where most of our future hopes lie. In order to conclude that wind is definitively cheaper than any other option, for example, it’s necessary to engage in considerable jiggery-pokery. The analysis underpinning the Labour manifesto, by a consultancy called Ember Climate, was conducted in 2022 — just before spiralling industry costs caused a government renewable power auction to fail.
At that moment, the moment Labour chose to embed in its policy assumptions, the cost of offshore wind appeared to be below the market price for UK electricity. A year later, prices had shot up above the market price. When you add in the cost of unreliable weather, which effectively has to be borne by gas plants and grid upgrades, the costs rise further. Orsted, the Danish company building Britain’s biggest offshore wind farms, has this year been cutting jobs, scaling back projects and reducing its forecasts.
What’s more, renewable production will take up vast tracts of countryside. Last year, Miliband wanted to block approval of the North Sea’s most promising new oil and gas fields, Cambo and Rosebank. Had he done so, number crunching by Lambert Energy Advisory shows we would have needed to build 1,000 sq km worth of wind farms to produce enough electricity to replace them, an area the size of Dartmoor National Park. And if we were to scale up battery production enough to store this power for when needed, we would most likely be buying the batteries from China — not exactly a watchword for energy security.
So yes, I suppose it’s possible that wind might be cheaper than other options and straightforward to build, but it’s also entirely possible that it won’t be, and it’s certain that its full costs are not being reflected in the numbers we see bandied about by net-zero enthusiasts.
There is another risk to Miliband’s energy plans: rocketing demand. For more than a decade, the UK’s electricity use has been declining thanks to de-industrialisation and energy efficiency. But that is likely to reverse, not just because all our cars and heating are soon meant to become electric, but also because of the vast power demands made by data centres needed to develop artificial intelligence. The National Grid has forecast that power demand will more than double by 2050. The government’s current plans show no sign of taking this into account.
The likelier scenario, of course, is that demand won’t grow anything like that amount because British growth will instead be strangled by yet another energy crunch, snuffing out innovation and subjecting us to further bouts of inflation. Like the last energy crisis, the next one is entirely foreseeable. The government could take action now to avoid it by investing in gas production and long-term gas contracts, just in case its impossibly ambitious green agenda doesn’t pan out as hoped. But prudence and net-zero policy appear to be polar opposites at this point.
Only one of them is enshrined in law, and it isn’t prudence.
Mitsubishi Ecodan
ASHP 8.5kW x 2
12 x 460w Solar panels
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Batteries x 2
EVs x 4 210 kWh Batteries
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Mart
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Re: Will heat pumps cause blackouts?

#33

Post by Mart »

Moxi wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 9:19 pm On a linked thought process why don’t we have white tarmac roads to reflect the suns energy ? It would reduce incidents of melted roads in summer, make driving at night safer ( tricky in snow I accept) same with buildings roofs, why are all these materials dark ? Would a change like that globally make a difference?

Moxi
Hi Moxi - I remembered stories and vids from a few years ago about Los Angeles painting some roads white to help with localised cooling, I'll attach a link. No idea if it's a viable solution, given the scale/cost.

Ohh, thought it was more recent than 2018, time flies.

Los Angeles is painting some of its streets white and the reasons why are pretty cool
8.7kWp PV [2.12kWp SSW + 4.61kWp ESE PV + 2.0kWp WNW PV]
Two BEV's.
Two small A2A heatpumps.
20kWh Battery storage.
Mart
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Re: Will heat pumps cause blackouts?

#34

Post by Mart »

Oliver90owner wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 8:12 pm Don’t ignore the albedo effect. What used to be directly reflected back to space as white light will be absorbed by the uncovered areas. That reflected light would not be absorbed by CO2 in the atmosphere.

The greenhouse effect is light goes in (some UV is absorbed/reflected by the glass), the light is converted to thermal energy inside the green house but the re-radiated energy is in the IR part of the spectrum and cannot get through the glass.

That is just another facet of a warming planet. Less snow cover means more solar insolation absorption, requiring the subsequent IR radiation to be lost to space - but unfortunately collected by the atmospheric CO2.
Yet another digression from me, but I think folk are getting used it - the albedo effect?

Watched a short documentary years ago, looking at the theoretical idea of greening the Sahara as a way to store vast amounts of carbon. The programme explained that it was hard to be sure about all the numbers, but the greened area would absorb more heat, and reflect less, thus negating the gains from the reduced CO2 in the atmosphere.

It wasn't meant as a negative, but seemed to say that there might be little to no reduction in temps, which was a surprise to me.

Reminded me of the temp gain we will get / are getting as we reduce coal generation, and the shading that the emissions provide. Obviously, the CO2 emissions are cumulative, and over time outweigh this, but as and when coal emissions peak, this shading effect will reduce. So the larger gains, will be reduced a bit.

What a mess we've made of this planet!
8.7kWp PV [2.12kWp SSW + 4.61kWp ESE PV + 2.0kWp WNW PV]
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Two small A2A heatpumps.
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Moxi
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Re: Will heat pumps cause blackouts?

#35

Post by Moxi »

Mart wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 7:23 am
Moxi wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 9:19 pm On a linked thought process why don’t we have white tarmac roads to reflect the suns energy ? It would reduce incidents of melted roads in summer, make driving at night safer ( tricky in snow I accept) same with buildings roofs, why are all these materials dark ? Would a change like that globally make a difference?

Moxi
Hi Moxi - I remembered stories and vids from a few years ago about Los Angeles painting some roads white to help with localised cooling, I'll attach a link. No idea if it's a viable solution, given the scale/cost.

Ohh, thought it was more recent than 2018, time flies.

Los Angeles is painting some of its streets white and the reasons why are pretty cool
Cheers Mart, I would think something like white roads would need to be a national initiative in order for the price to be more acceptable but its good to see they have tried it with hopefully positive results ?, with regards the Sahara I recall someone suggesting that crop spraying planes could be used to "whitewash the sand" to counter the lost albedo of the shrinking ice caps, not sure the native fauna and fauna would appreciate that.

With regard to humans messing up our planet there has never been a truer statement, hopefully we will be able to avoid the final outcome that Charlton Heston portrayed in Soylent Green back in the 1970's - arguably an excellent dramatized example of what overpopulation and global pollution could lead to and yet 51 years later we appear to be that bit closer to realising some of the effects of that sci fi movie. :shock:

lets hope the other end of the world movies he played in are even less prophetic :lol: Omega Man (COVID?) Planet of the apes (Putin) The naked jungle :lol: the list appears near endless ..........

Moxi
Moxi
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Re: Will heat pumps cause blackouts?

#36

Post by Moxi »

Countrypaul wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 11:08 pm Article on painting roofs white: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2023 ... dian-slums
Such a simple and effective aid to cooler homes for folk in the most need, that was a really good article.

Coming back to the UK and the roll out of heat pumps one of the things that has bothered me on my route towards electrification of the cottage has been the old adage of not having all my eggs in the one basket.

As we have two WBS this isn't a direct concern to me as we can always manage by other means for a month or so BUT there were cases in the recent bad winters where people had neither gas nor electricity (Wincobank in Sheffield I think was one example and some other regions too) due to water ingress, storms damage etc. In those cases you had people huddled and literally freezing to death in in their homes in large urban cities and towns.

So while I'm sure heat pumps wont cause a blackout what does the majority of homes do in a future "electric UK" when the power does fail for multiple days ie no heating no cooking, no washing?

Moxi
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Saladin
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Re: Will heat pumps cause blackouts?

#37

Post by Saladin »

I gave up trying to solve the energy "crisis" after I realised the larger issue is the political crisis.

Image

The problem is Capitlalism as I see it. The control of the means of production and the dumbing of our education.
Best example; most people haven't a clue what a kWh is (4 humans working muscles hard for one hour) but everyone seems to think they know what a £ is worth (untethered concept of arbitrary value that changes every moment)

When you're a hammer everything looks like a nail. There's ways to extract energy more abundant than any flowing through a cable with a meter in the middle.

The planet is a rotating magnet...that's called a magneto (type of alternator with a permanent magnetic field).
The ionosphere is conductive.
The planet is vibrating hence we can harmonically couple to it.

Wireless power isn't possible?
Lightning.
Resonance.
Photosynthesis.
Solar Power.
Human power.
Sound.

Einstein said action at a distance was spooky! Now most people can do it with their phones. The phones aren't necessary.


Pop quiz: Why are we using 50hz? What would be better? Why?
Last edited by Saladin on Thu Jul 18, 2024 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Countrypaul
Posts: 558
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:50 am

Re: Will heat pumps cause blackouts?

#38

Post by Countrypaul »

Moxi wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 8:20 am
Mart wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 7:23 am
Moxi wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 9:19 pm On a linked thought process why don’t we have white tarmac roads to reflect the suns energy ? It would reduce incidents of melted roads in summer, make driving at night safer ( tricky in snow I accept) same with buildings roofs, why are all these materials dark ? Would a change like that globally make a difference?

Moxi
Hi Moxi - I remembered stories and vids from a few years ago about Los Angeles painting some roads white to help with localised cooling, I'll attach a link. No idea if it's a viable solution, given the scale/cost.

Ohh, thought it was more recent than 2018, time flies.

Los Angeles is painting some of its streets white and the reasons why are pretty cool
Cheers Mart, I would think something like white roads would need to be a national initiative in order for the price to be more acceptable but its good to see they have tried it with hopefully positive results ?, with regards the Sahara I recall someone suggesting that crop spraying planes could be used to "whitewash the sand" to counter the lost albedo of the shrinking ice caps, not sure the native fauna and fauna would appreciate that.

With regard to humans messing up our planet there has never been a truer statement, hopefully we will be able to avoid the final outcome that Charlton Heston portrayed in Soylent Green back in the 1970's - arguably an excellent dramatized example of what overpopulation and global pollution could lead to and yet 51 years later we appear to be that bit closer to realising some of the effects of that sci fi movie. :shock:

lets hope the other end of the world movies he played in are even less prophetic :lol: Omega Man (COVID?) Planet of the apes (Putin) The naked jungle :lol: the list appears near endless ..........

Moxi
Many rural roads and some urban roads are covered in granite chips rather than the bitumen finish, others are concrete rather than bitumen, has anyone any idea on how much difference these finishes make on heat absorbtion compared to the black bitumen finished roads?
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Saladin
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Re: Will heat pumps cause blackouts?

#39

Post by Saladin »

Careful now..I'm getting traumatic flashes of solar freakin' roads and what an unmitigated abused of resources that was....roads are roads leave them alone and move on. The answer's rail by the way.

Any engineer coulda told ya solar roads would be a disaster. The green lobbys still had to invest millions of other peoples wealth and let it bellyflop to learn that empirically.
Wasted opportunity to put solar panels beside the road in the sunlight. :whako:

If we stop melting the bleddin' ice sheets and the Artic that'd be white and better...
Mart
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Re: Will heat pumps cause blackouts?

#40

Post by Mart »

Hi Moxi, sorry for the doom and gloom, but for the vast majority of people with (for example) gas central heating, they will also lose heat, as the boiler will switch off, and the pump won't have power. [Edit - Sorry, I mean in a power cut.]

Of course, a WBS is 'largely' foolproof?
8.7kWp PV [2.12kWp SSW + 4.61kWp ESE PV + 2.0kWp WNW PV]
Two BEV's.
Two small A2A heatpumps.
20kWh Battery storage.
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