Gas (and other energy) outlook

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Moxi
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Re: Gas (and otherf energy) outlook

#21

Post by Moxi »

Joeboy wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2024 9:49 pm
resybaby wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2024 9:15 pm Joeboy

Just typed out a long post (do that a lot dont i) and clicked on something and lost it somehow ? ? ?

Anyway, the gist was we are very low users, despite our installations.
Eleccy bill is circa £280/year inc the hated standing charge, so pretty low consumption, everything is based around its eco'ness,
The only heavy use thing is the 10.5kw eleccy shower we use in the winter. In summer we use the excessive PV and imersion on the mains pressured HW system i put in last year (finally).

If i were going to be around a long time, id be 8nterested in a boat type wind turbine (im front line North cornish coast and its always windy) for both a learning thing as well as constant trickle feed into batteries, and would be aiming to go off grid totally if possible. My inverter takes a generator for emergencies although non hooked up, and i could fit more panels.

as it is, im not, borrowed borrowed time already, so the idea is to make the house as efficent and as simple to operate as possible for the wife in her future.
I truly appreciate the time you gave. Cheers! 🙏

Don't leave too quick. :praise:
I will second JB's request to you Resybaby - you keep borrowing that time as much as possible!

Moxi
Moxi
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Re: Gas (and otherf energy) outlook

#22

Post by Moxi »

openspaceman wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2024 9:46 pm
Moxi wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2024 7:15 pm Openspaceman,

We have a 3 bed stone cottage 84m square meters of floor space, over 500mm loft insulation 300mm external wall insulation, old double glazed windows and door and a very old concrete floor laid direct to ground with no dpm that we know of. There’s draughts here and there that I am slowly addressing as I get access and as I often note we generally live with upstairs bedroom windows opened by an inch unless it’s blowing a westerly gale when we close it because of the noise rather than cold.

The epc is rated at D because we heat via wood and lpg but the energy to heat is just over 6,000kWh and just over 2,000kWh for DHW.

The epc says I could save £70 per year by insulating the floor which it estimates would cost £4,000 to £6,000 so I won’t be doing that unless I have to dig out the floor for other more structural reasons.

I am trying to get a heat geek engineer to assess my place for a heat pump and I don’t envisage the floor being an issue at all.

Moxi
Similarly our house is only 77m2 2 bed but in sunny Surrey.

It scored epc of C despite having no loft insulation (untrue as 100mm rockwool under attic floor). Some scope for adding to ceiling joists and laying another 100mm but limits headroom. No insulation on the coombed ceiling, which I could add plaster lined celotex and DIY.

Un-insulated solid brick walls that I like for the brickwork, apart for the cost I would be willing to lose 75mm internally.

I would go the heat pump route and buy a cheap EV if I thought Octopus IOG was going to last but the place will be gutted and extended after we are gone so the large investment would be wasted.

I am sold on underfloor heating as a heat store in the screed, running on off peak electricity but wonder if it would need topping up some winter days, estimated cost £10k.

The thing is apart from a few tanks of fuel for the chainsaw and a few trips with the car plus a few tens of hours of my time I don't pay for space heat.
Openspaceman,

As you say very similar circumstances, for a time I used to live just over the border in leafy Hampshire (Petersfield area) and I still work for some companies in the south which periodically requires a drive down - sometimes as far as the Kent south coast.

Like you most of our space heating is via the wood burner in the winter, restive heating in the shoulder months when the PV is being harvested. In your circumstance I would probably replace the chain saw with an electric 36V job - lighter and so easy to use. I share your view that IO will morph in to something else long before I get any real benefit from it, although for the people on it already I hope it lasts in its current guess for a long long time. Its well known that have a distrust of the smart meter system but I also believe its an inevitable change at some point either by choice or by necessity. If I was going to change then I would opt for the Octopus tracker and use the house batteries to avoid the premium prices, in winter my KH returns would help to subsidise the higher half hour unit costs of power to maintain a reasonably level base. I think the tracker tariff would be the hardest of the tariffs for Octopus to change without a fair outcry and inspection by the regulator so I expect it to hang around for a period (I could easily be wrong about that tho and its just a personal opinion)

For me the long term focus will be on more solar PV, a larger hybrid inverter, a bigger battery, better draught proofing and insulation, an ASHP and teaching my wife how the system works and is maintained.

Moxi
resybaby
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Re: Gas (and otherf energy) outlook

#23

Post by resybaby »

Moxi wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 8:48 am
Joeboy wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2024 9:49 pm [quote=resybaby post_id=43864 time=1708982158 user_id=
I truly appreciate the time you gave. Cheers! 🙏

Don't leave too quick. :praise:
I will second JB's request to you Resybaby - you keep borrowing that time as much as possible!

Moxi
[/quote]

Thanks you both, i fully intend to borrow far more than i already have to date, positive mind and all that.
Coughed up £32k yesterday for some fancy radiation treatment starting next month in Oxford to hopefully gain more, not availible to me on NHS. That thing we take for granted when we are young, "time" seems to cost us more and more as we get older, worth every penny though. No :surrender:
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Fintray
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Re: Gas (and otherf energy) outlook

#24

Post by Fintray »

resybaby wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 9:54 am
Moxi wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 8:48 am
Joeboy wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2024 9:49 pm [quote=resybaby post_id=43864 time=1708982158 user_id=


I truly appreciate the time you gave. Cheers! 🙏

Don't leave too quick. :praise:
I will second JB's request to you Resybaby - you keep borrowing that time as much as possible!

Moxi
Thanks you both, i fully intend to borrow far more than i already have to date, positive mind and all that.
Coughed up £32k yesterday for some fancy radiation treatment starting next month in Oxford to hopefully gain more, not availible to me on NHS. That thing we take for granted when we are young, "time" seems to cost us more and more as we get older, worth every penny though. No :surrender:
I hope the treatment does give you more time, lots more :xl: I know the value of getting some extra time.
Last edited by Fintray on Tue Sep 24, 2024 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joeboy
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Re: Gas (and otherf energy) outlook

#25

Post by Joeboy »

Fintray wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 1:23 pm
resybaby wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 9:54 am
Moxi wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 8:48 am

I truly appreciate the time you gave. Cheers! 🙏

Don't leave too quick. :praise:
I will second JB's request to you Resybaby - you keep borrowing that time as much as possible!

Moxi
Thanks you both, i fully intend to borrow far more than i already have to date, positive mind and all that.
Coughed up £32k yesterday for some fancy radiation treatment starting next month in Oxford to hopefully gain more, not availible to me on NHS. That thing we take for granted when we are young, "time" seems to cost us more and more as we get older, worth every penny though. No :surrender:
I hope the treatment does give you more time, lots more :xl: I know the value of getting some extra time.
[/quote]

My sister in law got a new oral chemo, gave her another two years and she lived/used every minute! Got her in the end but she was still popping two fingers at it right to the very end.

All the best Resy, talk about anything you want. We are happy to help, better shared than held inside. Allow me to say, "cancers a cunt". Apols for the phrasing but a long held developed theory and heartfelt.
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Krill
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Re: Gas (and otherf energy) outlook

#26

Post by Krill »

Looks like Ed Miliband reads this forum:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/homeand ... 57ee&ei=11
Krill wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2024 4:50 pm I'm not disagreeing with the goal of zero residential gas use, merely attempting to illustrate a problem with a usage tax on gas and some of the knock on effects.

I own my house (well, mortgaged, but whatever). Remove the planning permission barrier and I have a simple economic incentive to swap to a heat pump if it becomes cheaper to run than a gas boiler (I already have an ethical incentive), so a tax on usage can work to change my behaviour.

Occupiers of privately rented dwellings have no control over the presence of a gas boiler. It doesn't matter how high a tax is on gas, levied via a usage tariff paid by the occupier, because it does not act as an incentive on the landlord to change to an electric heat pump. Doesn't matter if it's 1% or 1000%, unless the tax is racked so high that it is actually cheaper to make the tenant put in the HP and hence acts as a wealth transfer from poor to rich.

Part of the issue is that any attempt to tax the landlord ends up with the landlord passing as much of hte cost onto the occupier, which is where (I think) statutory obligations need to be utilised, to force the incentive onto the owner (klandlord) and not the occupier.

One example, is imagine this: what if there was alaw which set a date, say 1/9/2030 - beyond which no privately rented accomodation could have rent charged whilst the only source of heating was a gas boiler (the wording should probably be: has a gas supply to the property). Now the landlord have an incentive to ensure that there are no gas boilers present. If they try to sell up though, there are knock on effects for the housing market which can become quite unusual but also is likely to push out smaller landlords and increase larger corporations which own portfolios of property. So ther is another problem which needs to be managed.

But let's carry on with the scenario. We've just increased the demand on the HP supply, so we need to either manufacture or import the equipment in short order. We're going to see a price increase just like we did in Covid with solar PV and batteries due to the spike. We're already looking at a production gap, so we need to choose a date which works best - but landlords will put off the expenditure anyway so delaying doesn't happen. So we need phased increases, so need to start measuring portfolios of property to measure what percentage is gas and what percentage is electric. Oh wait, what if the landlords cheap out and just move to an electric boiler? I worked out that it would take the entire after tax, pension and student loan wage of a new band 5 NHS (ie newly qualified nurse) to heat the average 3 bed property in the winter months (or rather, at the winter 22 electricity prices, with the cap in place, so it would be a little lower at this point) using an electric boiler. So we already have problems there as well, need to stop land lords being cheapskates.

I'll stop at this point, because I've gone far enough, but I think the following steps need to be taken along with a tax on gas.
  1. Planning permission needs to be relaxed for heat pump installs, especially in terraced housing.
  2. Significant control is needed to enforce insulation of privately rented properties, with a due by date will before any enforced date affecting ending gas boiler use and installation.
  3. Given that energy use and the housing market are closely linked, there will need to be robust and decisive governmental control (lol) over policies similar to "Right to buy" as a back stop, so landlords that try to sell privately rented properties and forced to sell to the tenants in the first instance to stop a glut of properties hitting the market, realistically this needs to be followed up with a similar scheme help to buy loans.
  4. There does need to be a state owned company (realistically it would probably be commissioning companies to act on it's behalf in the near term, similar to NHS commissioning) to act as a ceiling price enforcer for solar PV, batteries, heat pumps and insulation to stop profiteering. Grants are a stupid way to manage the system, this way. Ideally this would be managed at local authority level so it could be integrated with housing plans.
  5. A tax on gas used by powerplants would only work if the price gas powerplants is paid for power is completely decoupled from RE prices, otherwise we just get inflationary costs
To repeat, I agree with the zero gas use goal, but I think a tax is just harder to justify. It's actually simpler if it's outlawed sector by sector, as it's easily controlled by just turning off sections of the network.
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nowty
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Re: Gas (and otherf energy) outlook

#27

Post by nowty »

There are already rules which say properties need to be of a certain efficiency but there are get outs, if the building simply cannot be easily brought up to standard. And some of these changes actually cost the tenant more. For example when daughter lived in London the gas boiler needed to be replaced, but the landlord replaced it with an electric boiler which was more efficient than gas. But that was not a heat pump, it was a high power resistive boiler which cost daughter a hell of a lot more to run and less maintenance for the landlord. Many properties in London are very old solid brick and listed buildings.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/domestic-pr ... d-guidance
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Krill
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Re: Gas (and otherf energy) outlook

#28

Post by Krill »

:) Posted that :)
Oh wait, what if the landlords cheap out and just move to an electric boiler? I worked out that it would take the entire after tax, pension and student loan wage of a new band 5 NHS (ie newly qualified nurse) to heat the average 3 bed property in the winter months (or rather, at the winter 22 electricity prices, with the cap in place, so it would be a little lower at this point) using an electric boiler. So we already have problems there as well, need to stop land lords being cheapskates.
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Moxi
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Re: Gas (and otherf energy) outlook

#29

Post by Moxi »

Krill wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 10:24 am :) Posted that :)
Oh wait, what if the landlords cheap out and just move to an electric boiler? I worked out that it would take the entire after tax, pension and student loan wage of a new band 5 NHS (ie newly qualified nurse) to heat the average 3 bed property in the winter months (or rather, at the winter 22 electricity prices, with the cap in place, so it would be a little lower at this point) using an electric boiler. So we already have problems there as well, need to stop land lords being cheapskates.
:on-patrol: I am starting to think that Krill IS Ed Miliband :on-patrol:

:shock:

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Krill
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Re: Gas (and otherf energy) outlook

#30

Post by Krill »

As much as I hate to admit this: Ed MIliband probably has more charisma than I :facepalm:

Although this wouldn't be the first time a secretary of state ripped off one of my ideas.
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