Stop pushing heat pumps or face major backlash, Dale Vince tells Labour

[Ken]

Most people seem to confuse cost with CO2 output. In energy terms and CO2 the HP is a no brainer and needs support/pushing.

However the vast majority cannot see past cost and on that basis a oil boiler is the cheapest of all with the HP being the same running cost as gas so what is the point in changing.

The case for the HP is not helped by the insistance of MCS standards for the grant which leads to larger HPs and emitter mods.

The vast majority should be fitting A2A HPs as these definately make financial sense noteing that with one outdoor unit one can have 5 indoor units.. Lower fitting and running costs and no disruption will win the day

[HML]

I doubt that many people confuse cost with CO2 emissions, but for all but the very wealthy and/or committed you can't avoid the cost issue. Very few people are going to pay the £3000-£5000 you can expect to pay for an MCS installation just to replace a gas boiler with similar or higher running costs and which needs to be used in a different way to gas boilers if you want good economy.

We've only got 2 fossil fuel consuming devices left, a diesel car which is very little used and a chainsaw, which isn't used at all. The gas supply has been removed.

Can't say I'm concerned by the impact that will have on CO2 emissions (probably making them worse with all the embodied energy). I've long had the view that all the readily accessible fossil fuels are going to be extracted and burnt regardless of the views of people who wish to stop FF burning. Politicians and energy companies are just too short term and focused on maximising income to bother about CO2. I just find it aesthetically satisfying to reduce our personal pollution contributions.

[Joeboy]

From a financial POV heat pumps will be a failure unless they are completely subsidised. The payback is far too long, if ever.

Sat in on a presentation yesterday at the Everything Electric Show entitled "The state of play with the UK Heat Pump roll out. What's holding us back?"

And of course, it was cost that came up as the main issue. But perhaps some good news (if true) for new builds, was something the guest speaker from Baxi said. He said that roughly half the cost of an ASHP install, was dealing with the issues of 20+yrs of previous heating/systems.

It was an almost off-hand digression, so I won't remember all the points, and I don't think he listed everything, but it was about siting, radiator size and cleaning, micro-bore, typically a need to go back to a tank where space may not now exist, silly issue of PP and noise, v's gas boilers and noisy flues, etc.

The point being that for new builds, the cost shouldn't be considerably more than a gas install. And for replacement/maintenance going forward, no different to boiler repairs / replacement costs.

No idea if all of that is true, and cost comparison fair, but I think it's a good point. Not that it helps with the ~20m residences that already exist.

All the issues apart from microbore came up in our survey, as an added wrinkle the coil inside a 15 year old perfect nick oso tank doesn't have enough area at the lower flow temp so it is being changed out too. It is an eye watering amount of money to shell out and I have reasons for doing so both financially and morally as well i suppose as the reality of house size. Maybe some tech geekery too. TBH, I'm only comfortable doing it as I took my 25% tax free from pensions before the govt could lower the threshold. Even in that, essentially the land of free money & a grant I'm still not that comfortable. Although I hope to be once fitted.

For smaller well insulated properties i'd suggest A2A air con or two with built in moisture control gets the owner into a power multiplier and a well insulated HWC on a tou overnight tarrif is the best current combo, water main fed to non electric shower.

Did they mention the quality that the installers are working to? That makes a huge difference to the end product from start to finish.

Greg Jackson looks to be doing a hell of a lot more than any other single person in the country on the ashp's. They're not this far North yet for install or I'd have had a quote from them. Nonetheless, doing well with the cosy 6 and plans for larger too?

Edit- Then this popped up in my newsfeed!

https://www.energylivenews.com/2024/10/ ... w-partner/

[Mart]

Hia Joe. I do feel a bit bad today about knocking wet system heat pumps yesterday. I really do believe they are the future for most, just a bit pee'd off that the support doesn't stretch to A2A units.

Been incredible chatting with like minded folk on forums, and seeing how well an A2A unit can help, or in the case of some (like adokforme) a total replacement for a wet system.

I've seen some MP correspondence on the MSE site, where one poster was really trying hard to get the Gov (about 4yrs ago) to recognise the benefits of an A2A unit. If nothing else, just dropping the VAT on the units and install cost would be quite significant.

But I've also seen a lot of green minded folk claiming that AC units are the enemy of society, and will make everything worse. Not sure they appreciate how little AC is needed v's how much heat can be added (in the UK). And if you add PV the the combo is near perfect.

I'm sure we'll get there, just need the support and subsidies to be reviewed and polished better. At the very least some folk at the chats on the weekend mentioned that the ASHP grant should be linked to mandatory insulation upgrades (where needed). Sounds like a good idea, or perhaps that's baked in somehow already.

Totally agree about the HWC. I have been researching HP units, with external venting (or internal for cooling in the summer). The funny thing is, that the higher cost, which I'm happy to pay, probably makes no sense v's cheap night rate leccy (as you mention) and a 'normal' tank, given our relatively low use.

[smegal]

But I've also seen a lot of green minded folk claiming that AC units are the enemy of society, and will make everything worse. Not sure they appreciate how little AC is needed v's how much heat can be added (in the UK). And if you add PV the the combo is near perfect.

I think this is the problem. If the gov supported A2A there'd be uproar in the tabliods about the gov "subsidising air conditioners". Whereas as you rightly say, they'd be used for cooling maybe 7 days a year, but used for heating in shoulder months with a positive COP and more localised heat.

[Joeboy]

But I've also seen a lot of green minded folk claiming that AC units are the enemy of society, and will make everything worse. Not sure they appreciate how little AC is needed v's how much heat can be added (in the UK). And if you add PV the the combo is near perfect.

I think this is the problem. If the gov supported A2A there'd be uproar in the tabliods about the gov "subsidising air conditioners". Whereas as you rightly say, they'd be used for cooling maybe 7 days a year, but used for heating in shoulder months with a positive COP and more localised heat.

And as a dehumidifier with no heatloss to outdoors. Quite the multitrick pony the inverter type A2A.

[Moxi]

That’s a screen grab of today’s heating profile and boiler run time or lack of. No other heat sources today except running the oven for twenty minutes to bake six cup cakes and the hob for forty minutes to make a batch of big mac and cheese.

The thermostat is in the lounge - the largest room in the house, it’s next to the open kitchen door and play room.

The temperature increase at 7 am is just five medium to small sized humans and four medium sized dogs. Today’s outside temperature started at 8 degrees rising to 13 degrees around 1pm.

This is a pretty typical profile for us even on 4 degree days.

Moxi

[Joeboy]

That’s a screen grab of today’s heating profile and boiler run time or lack of. No other heat sources today except running the oven for twenty minutes to bake six cup cakes and the hob for forty minutes to make a batch of big mac and cheese.

The thermostat is in the lounge - the largest room in the house, it’s next to the open kitchen door and play room.

The temperature increase at 7 am is just five medium to small sized humans and four medium sized dogs. Today’s outside temperature started at 8 degrees rising to 13 degrees around 1pm.

This is a pretty typical profile for us even on 4 degree days.

Moxi

That's really excellent, how did you achieve all that thermal efficiency Moxi? Did you do EWI? Sorry, memory is shot!

[Moxi]

Hi JB,

Yes we were really lucky to have been given EWI around ten years ago - it was a game changer, the year before we would wake up with ice on the inside of double glazed windows - afterwards it was a really warm comfy cottage. I’m not really up to speed with what folk need to heat the average home and I always thought our bills were good generally because the cottage is very compact but recently I am starting to appreciate that it’s performance is respectable.

I do have some work to do regards air tightening on really windy days as you can feel some draughts here and there but understanding other people’s situation has made me start to appreciate my own hence the post to see how that stacked up and underpin my previous posted heat loss calculations.

Moxi

[Joeboy]

Hi JB,

Yes we were really lucky to have been given EWI around ten years ago - it was a game changer, the year before we would wake up with ice on the inside of double glazed windows - afterwards it was a really warm comfy cottage. I’m not really up to speed with what folk need to heat the average home and I always thought our bills were good generally because the cottage is very compact but recently I am starting to appreciate that it’s performance is respectable.

I do have some work to do regards air tightening on really windy days as you can feel some draughts here and there but understanding other people’s situation has made me start to appreciate my own hence the post to see how that stacked up and underpin my previous posted heat loss calculations.

Moxi

I think you're doing very well there Moxi. Any home that can be heated by body heat alone in Oct is a cracker! I continue to think I'm doing OK then.i find another thing, then another thing. .The shutter fan made a tangible difference in the main bathroom even though I hadn't felt a draught there, it was just that bit below average consistently. No1 son said he felt the difference too.

Found these solutions on my window edge sealing hunt the other day(s), would transfer over as an air leak stopper to just about anything? The other products I found are window specific. These all seem multipurpose and pretty much at the top of their respective game?

https://www.ecologicalbuildingsystems.c ... ct/orcon-f

https://www.earthwiseconstruction.co.uk ... z0QAvD_BwE

https://www.dortechdirect.co.uk/catalog ... -7EALw_wcB

https://www.sealantsonline.co.uk/Produc ... foam-tapes