Is A2A to be included in the BUS grant spring 2025 ?

[Countrypaul]

I was wondering reading this thread whether resistive electric heating was a better option than gas for the very cold spells? I don't have gas (never experienced having a gas boiler) but know that a gas boiler should be serviced annually at a cost of £X and how much is the standing charge for having gas £Y. How much electricity does £X+Y buy? Obviou;y depends on which tariff, but might be better than keeping gas at all.

[Moxi]

our annual gas boiler service costs 175 quid and takes the nice gas fitter approximately 15 minutes to complete - no standing charge as I am on LPG but a 47kg cylinder costs me 76 quid which I am lead to believe is a lot cheaper than most other parts of the UK - but still more expensive than the gas grid.

I think I need to bite the bullet and get a HWC fitted somewhere and heat it up to 70 degrees in the vanilla slot and see if that gets al the family DHW needs filled.

Need to get it all right though otherwise its going to adversely impact the wife and kids and I dont want that,

Moxi

[Adokforme]

I'll check if he's shy, or happy to post the link.

Found it Mart so post here, my 30 secs of "Fame" commence from 29mins in all being well! Hard as I tried to contain frustration for A2A's lack of promotion over five years I reckon I failed miserably.
https://www.patreon.com/posts/everythin ... AWrkBzpZYA

[Ken]

Or one could fit a A2A if you have small bore pipes and keep the gas for those few days a yr.

100%. A relatively cheap hybrid solution, especially if you have batts to time shift cheap rate for daytime space heating. But regardless, PV and an A2A will reduce or eliminate GCH during the shoulder months in the Spring/Autumn.

My plan was to use GCH as a top up for extreme's, as we have microbore. But the A2A units work better than expected, and even if I have to buy some day rate leccy, it probably works out similar to gas price after the COP.

One tiny caveat I have regarding the news is that it states that MCS standards have to be met. That sounds fine at first, but what if the support/subsidy* is conditional on the install being able to cope, like the ASHP rules. That's where I fell down, and got an ASHP quote of over £13k (~£6.5k after subsidy), despite having a low gas consumption, as my EPC and house description, suggested it would be a tough job. [1930's semi with CWI, but the area is classed as solid brick walls, perhaps as the cavities are small (~50mm), and my CWI isn't confirmed on the EPC.]

So we could have the same situation, where a system will work, but the MCS regs suggest it won't, so support isn't granted? Or perhaps an A2A is seen as just a way to support heating, and reduce the CO2(e) element, so regs are looser. I'm purely speculating, but hoping for good news in the Spring.

Edit, forgot the * - No idea what the support will be, perhaps just PP changes, but given the substantial £7.5k for wet systems, it would be nice if A2A got some decent support, but even VAT free would help.

Afraid you have hit the nail on the head yet again - MCS will get in the way as indeed it does with A2W as well in telling people to replace pipes ,rads and insulate. I have lots of issues with the MCS route as you do and think the best way is to stay clear, forget the £7.5K and just fit a A2A.

Its always difficult to justify something that is working but not when a oil tank leaks or a gas boiler gives up the ghost.

[Stinsy]

I was wondering reading this thread whether resistive electric heating was a better option than gas for the very cold spells? I don't have gas (never experienced having a gas boiler) but know that a gas boiler should be serviced annually at a cost of £X and how much is the standing charge for having gas £Y. How much electricity does £X+Y buy? Obviou;y depends on which tariff, but might be better than keeping gas at all.

Standing charge for gas is a joke! It is a "poll tax" that OFGEM has been determined to increase over the last few years.

I pay £100 a year SC and £80 for gas. That'd buy me 2500kWh of off-peak electric! Hence my plan to get off gas!

(Tank is going to cost about £800 and fitting it will be a right royal palava so even then payback will be slow!)

[Mart]

Hi Ken, I wonder if the problem is trying to protect uninformed members of the public, since the vast majority won't know anything about HPs?

Playing Devil's Advocate, I ran into this problem when trying to get an A2A unit many years ago.

Quick story - On a MSE thread, possibly 10yrs ago, there was mention of the 'new' inverter HP's, typically called air con, that could also do heat. I raised a question about the idea of getting one to use shoulder month PV excess to reduce GCH use. One of the members ran with it, starting a new thread based around my question, and discussions started with lots of ideas and suggestions.

But, I was left in the dust for years getting nowhere, whilst others (such as Adokforme (again)) lept in and went for it, with great success.

My problem, and I'm getting to the point now, is that I spoke to several installers, but none of them wanted to deal with a domestic install*, as they'd had a guts full of people complaining that they didn't do what was claimed, because they didn't understand COPs, especially that in the winter, there would be less heat output (lower COP). One even said that it was clear that I understood, but that it just wasn't worth the bother.

Luckily a couple of years later I found Cooleasy, which had clear pricing, and also stated a fixed cost for installs. Bonus they were S. Wales based.

So I can see the other side, but there has to be a happier medium. I thought my actual gas consumption would influence the ASHP quote, but again (playing Devil's Advocate) I can see their side, as they don't know for certain if the house is warm, or I'm sitting in 5 layers of clothing with a hot water bottle. I don't know what the answer / best solution is, for the general public?

[Obviously folk like Camelot members are in the minority, but PV, batts and cheap rate leccy are a perfect combination for A2A units, extending their use out of the shoulder months, and through the whole winter. And in many cases, BEV's are important too, as a pleasant side effect, since they typically make it worthwhile switching to a cheap rate, opening the door for nightime running of an A2A, at the very least.

*This was when the idea wasn't common, and whilst some A2A units were advertised as 'conservatory heating', most were just for A/C.

[Oliver90owner]

I have a Kenlowe engine heater. I am looking into easily plumbing it into the HWC coil and running it on Octopus Go, for domestic water heating. 3kW timer and a thermostat on the tank. Initially continue with the NG boiler (‘cos I like the fine control of the gas hob, for cooking) for limited space heating for a while.

A2A heat pump, using night-rate leccy, from a reasonable sized storage battery, should cover most of my downstairs space heating requirements.

Main problem, at the moment, is finding enough energy to make the changes.

[cojmh]

Hi all,

I have a quick question on this - playing devils advocate.

I admire a lot of the installs you all have and I am working towards them too. But a key element is time of use tariffs (with or without batteries). If time of use tariffs disappeared so that there was just the simple day rate electricity all the time - how would everyone's costs stack up then?

I appreciate most are going to say that is never going to happen and there have been tariffs like economy 7 for donkeys years ..... but I am always wary of things that can be changed by a 3rd party that are outside of our control and don't want to be trapped on a one way street if the rug is pulled out from under us?

I just have a concern that as things like heat pumps (A2A or A2W) become mainstream and the country starts getting more and more large scale energy storage solutions to soak up the cheap/over production of electricity at night that there are less benefits to offering cheap electricity slots for people.

Maybe I am just getting to cynical. But I would be interested in everyone's thoughts.

If the figures all stack up without using cheap electricity slots then that would be great - and I apologise if this is covered somewhere else - I have not seen it discussed.

[resybaby]

Hi all,

I have a quick question on this - playing devils advocate.

I admire a lot of the installs you all have and I am working towards them too. But a key element is time of use tariffs (with or without batteries). If time of use tariffs disappeared so that there was just the simple day rate electricity all the time - how would everyone's costs stack up then?

I appreciate most are going to say that is never going to happen and there have been tariffs like economy 7 for donkeys years ..... but I am always wary of things that can be changed by a 3rd party that are outside of our control and don't want to be trapped on a one way street if the rug is pulled out from under us?

I just have a concern that as things like heat pumps (A2A or A2W) become mainstream and the country starts getting more and more large scale energy storage solutions to soak up the cheap/over production of electricity at night that there are less benefits to offering cheap electricity slots for people.

Maybe I am just getting to cynical. But I would be interested in everyone's thoughts.

If the figures all stack up without using cheap electricity slots then that would be great - and I apologise if this is covered somewhere else - I have not seen it discussed.

Cojmh

Despite having a relatively decent sized battery and pv system im not on any TOU tariffs and am avoiding a smart meter like the plague for exactly your reasons. Once youve burned your bridges you remove your options and i like to paddle my own canoe. Im sticking with my eco7 tariff for now until the picture becomes clearer in years to come.
Partly the reason i still run diesel cars (the most econical ones that meet my needs tho), it seems to me that the tax income provided by petrol/diesel will need to be replaced in some form, and i am hugely sceptical as to why the government hasnt stated how they will do this in the future.
Dont want tying to an EV (despite being able to fuel it for free in the better months), if they decide any possible tax claim to cover the loss of FF income is something silly, like £1 per mile. What financial price a Tesla then?

[Joeboy]

All outcomes are possible although with huge amounts of wt's being curtailed in UK & Europe I can see cheap slots becoming more mainstream through other energy suppliers. A more flexible grid will be great.

Personally the order of relevance is air leak fix, insulate, reduce consumption through better machines or behaviour, time shift load to a better tarrif. All of those are relatively cheap to carry out and are right at the coalface of consumption with the largest impact/cost ratio. After that the price goes up.

Solar pv, batteries, a2a/w, gshp, Hydro, wind. My personal combo if I had to pick just two to insulate (hah) me from market costs would be solar (use it or sell it) and a heat source that gathers from ground, water or air not the grid on a 1:1 so to speak.

Adding in the PV export tarrifs and VB (virtual battery) coupled to a HP multiplier and you may largely negate the requirement for a battery at all.