The Boy That Cried PV Extension

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nowty
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Re: The Boy That Cried PV Extension

#111

Post by nowty »

Krill wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 10:48 am Anyone got an below 1%?
0.13 %, I set min export at around 1kW all the time whilst I am not importing. :mrgreen:

If your on an export tariff there is little downside if you have a large enough battery, I have found even setting a min export at a few tens of watts makes a big difference.

Image

It would have been less than 0.01% if I had not fecked up on the 4th Nov. :facepalm:
Image
18.7kW PV > 110MWh generated
Ripple 6.6kW Wind + 4.5kW PV > 30MWh generated
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Krill
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Re: The Boy That Cried PV Extension

#112

Post by Krill »

It also helps when half the day is cheap slot...
Solar PV: 6.4kW solar PV (Eurener MEPV 400W*16)
PV Inverter: Solis 6kW inverter
Batteries: 14.4kWh LiFePO4 batteries (Pylontech US5000*3)
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nowty
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Re: The Boy That Cried PV Extension

#113

Post by nowty »

Krill wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 11:36 am It also helps when half the day is cheap slot...
It certainly does in the heating season. :whistle:
18.7kW PV > 110MWh generated
Ripple 6.6kW Wind + 4.5kW PV > 30MWh generated
6 Other RE Coop's
105kWh EV storage
60kWh Home battery storage
40kWh Thermal storage
GSHP + A2A HP's
Rain water use > 520 m3
Adokforme
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Re: The Boy That Cried PV Extension

#114

Post by Adokforme »

nowty wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 11:14 am
Krill wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 10:48 am Anyone got an below 1%?
0.13 %, I set min export at around 1kW all the time whilst I am not importing. :mrgreen:

If your on an export tariff there is little downside if you have a large enough battery, I have found even setting a min export at a few tens of watts makes a big difference.

Image

It would have been less than 0.01% if I had not fecked up on the 4th Nov. :facepalm:
Image
Thanks for posting @nowty as it is something I've been pondering on doing although hampered by the current Giv EMS only allowing export at maximum rate, 6kW's. Indra's V2H is similar but does at least have a sliding scale option but this covers both export and Import so not really helpful.
Perhaps I'll have to suggest it to them to see waht they might be able to come up with.
AE-NMidlands
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Re: The Boy That Cried PV Extension

#115

Post by AE-NMidlands »

Adokforme wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 2:05 pm Thanks for posting @nowty as it is something I've been pondering on doing although hampered by the current Giv EMS only allowing export at maximum rate, 6kW's. Indra's V2H is similar but does at least have a sliding scale option but this covers both export and Import so not really helpful.
Perhaps I'll have to suggest it to them to see waht they might be able to come up with.
My Givenergy controls allow me to set a maximum battery draw, so I can limit that to prevent too much going out during an export period. The trouble with that is that a) - assuming there is no solar pv incoming - you can't take extra for the house without limiting the export, and b) you have to remember to wind it back up at the end of the export period to get full power available from the batt again, or it takes some and tops up from the grid!
2.0 kW/4.62 MWh pa in Ripples, 4.5 kWp W-facing pv, 9.5 kWh batt
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Most travel by bike, walking or bus/train. Veg, fruit - and Bees!
Mart
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Re: The Boy That Cried PV Extension

#116

Post by Mart »

Quick update. Everything has gone fine for Dec, and now had my bill (27th Nov to 27th Dec).

Leccy came to £84.28, inc £18.62 in SC. Imported 888.8kWh cheap rate, and 13.3kWh day rate.

Gas came to £15.76 with £8.94 of that SC. Imported 106kWh.


Still no problems with the A2A 'solution'. 20kWh batts typically getting down to 50% by bed time, on poor PV days. Perhaps 60-70% with decent gen, and down towards 20% on washing day. So plenty of buffer even if we get a very cold period in Jan. Jan PV target is about 15% higher too. And of course, I'm not describing a potential system failure, just that I may need to buy some day rate leccy, worst case.


Famous last words, but looks like the system is managing to maintain the temp of the building. I thought I might see it drifting downwards, but in reality the night time (cheap rate) boost is managing fine. I simply dial the temp target for the A2A units up two degrees and dial up the 'fan distribution system' via the kitchen internal window a notch.

Assuming we get some more typical cold weather in Jan, then the nightime 'supercharging' has plenty of headroom, if anything this Dec I lowered the temp, as the house was getting too hot in the morning. Hope that makes sense, looks like the system can manage on a day to day basis, whereas I was worried that there might be a steady decline over perhaps a week.

Problems - well, firstly the kitchen is solved. I was certain we would need some suplemental heating, and was happy to get a heater/blower, or a radiator immersion. But the fan is working far better than I'd hoped (or joked), and is maintaining the temp fine.

Also solved / not an issue is the hallway. It used to get cold before we upgraded to a huge double rad, and I thought it might get cool, but the warm air escaping through the hallway is more than enough, it doesn't 'magically' zip up to the ceiling then up the stairs as I'd partially feared.

Bathroom, as expected, is a bit cold. Planned solution is a heated towel rad. Currently I have a small oil rad (500W) in there, with the plug/socket outside on the landing. This is really just to give me an idea of what power will be needed. Was thinking higher power, and boost through the night, but now suspect a lower power on 24/7 might be better, and more suitable.


Last issue, and looking for thoughts on my reasoning, and this is the HW tank and heating of spare room. As mentioned previously, I'm thinking of using the HW tank as a storage heater for the spare room. Effectively warming the room via leaked heat which has come from cheap rate leccy. A suggestion was made to perhaps have some of the piping insulation easily accessible to increase leaked heat in the winter (great idea). Well another thought, as I've been looking at tanks and sizes, does this make sense - should I go for a larger tank than we really need, so that during the summer we have it at a low(ish) temp, and reduced heat leakage, but in the winter, we can deliberately heat it to a higher temp, which will (I assume?) naturally increase heat leakage due to the greater temp differential (with the room)?

I'm not sure about tank sizes, but just as an example, perhaps 150lt is enough for us, but 180lt provides spare capacity, and 210lt might allow for the lower summer, higher winter idea? Does any of that make sense? I'm also seeing that tank cost doesn't rise much with size, and I've found lots of examples that fit depth wise, and we have plenty of height allowing for a larger tank capacity. [Power and energy wise, looks fine. Our current gas consumption is just over 3kWh per day including oven. So DHW of around 3kWh is probably fair, and I'm planning to set up the tank with 3 to 4kW of heating, so 6hrs overnight will be able to handle it easy, with loads of spare, even if several kWh's leak as heat deliberately.]


Overall, I'm shocked that this works so well. I had my doubts about 2 A2A units downstairs, in a two storey property (we also have loft room/stairs, but curtained and partially insulated off). I did think we'd need a third A2A unit upstairs, but oil rads on timers are coping fine.

Bills are massively reduced. We pay £150pm*, and naturally in the winter would exceed this, refilling the pot in the warmer months. But now looks like Nov through Feb will be sub £100, including BEV charging, and the other 8 months (thanks to the PV/batts) will require negligible import. In fact, export payments may cover much of the winter bills.

[* Edit - £150pm was set up for leccy and gas, prior to the PV expansion and batt install. Since then gas consumption has crashed, and whilst leccy has increased overall, it's almost all moved to cheap rate.]

Small added bonus, I did mention to Wifey that if the SC goes, then no real need to get rid of the gas ovens. But she's actually looking forward to going leccy, so all options are good.
8.7kWp PV [2.12kWp SSW + 4.61kWp ESE PV + 2.0kWp WNW PV]
Two BEV's.
Two small A2A heatpumps.
20kWh Battery storage.
Mart
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Re: The Boy That Cried PV Extension

#117

Post by Mart »

Another update and still over-thinking everything. System has worked fine. Batts ran out a couple of times in Jan, before cheap rate re-started, but that was expected, and minimal cost.

Was holding on for my Jan bill* before posting, but got too excited and had to ask about yet another idea I've had for the HW tank and upstairs heating. It ocurred to me, that whilst a HP HW tank may never pay back the extra cost, I should get one anyway, since I have the money, and it will mean lower energy consumption.

So I was looking at models, just to learn a bit more, and expand my knowledge, and saw something that caught my eye. One company was offering models with, or without a heat exchanger. As I read up, I realised I didn't need the heat exchanger model, as the HW only was ~£300 less. The heat exchanger could run a small underfloor heating system, or a small central heating circuit.

Then today I had a brainwave. My upstairs is a small CH system (I think?) There are only 4 rads, ranging from 900mm to 1,200mm, and all single panel (with fins). I have been supplementing the heat from the A2A units flowing upstairs with some oil rads, and a dehumidifier, but they are not on much during the day, and total 1,900W. I would guess at them running 1/3rd of the time so ~600W average, maybe less.

My combi is in the upstairs spare bedroom, where the HW tank will go to replace it. This is the room that I've been looking for heating solutions. The combi has 2 circuits(?) one goes out across the landing for the upstairs, and the other goes down, then runs under the downstairs rooms feeding the rads.

Is it correct to call them two circuits, I don't know the proper wording, but the heating going downstairs can be removed completely (theoretically for discussion, or in reality)?

Purely to explain what I mean, here are two examples of HPHW tanks I've found, and the description given. I'm posting just to clarify what I mean, and the larger unit specifically refers to a 'small central heating circuit'.:

AquaThermica 260
The TESY AquaThermica is an all in one air-to-water, air source heat pump for generating hot water for domestic hot water. The TESY AquaThermica has a capacity of 260 litres of water and offers a maximum water temperature of 65 degrees. It has an internal sealed coil heat exchanger to allow a closed (unvented) connection to a small central heating / under floor heating circuit, or to allow an alternative heat source to be connected the cylinder.
AquaThermica 200
The TESY AquaThermica is an all in one air-to-water, air source heat pump for generating hot water for domestic hot water and central heating. The TESY AquaThermica has a capacity of 194 litres of water and offers a maximum water temperature of 65 degrees. It has an internal sealed coil heat exchanger to allow a closed (unvented) connection to a central heating / under floor heating circuit.

If this can connect to my upstairs 'circuit', is it simple(ish), in fact, is this an obvious solution that everybody else knows about, but not me. I assume ordinary HW tanks can do this too, but obviously at a resistive COP of 1, rather than 3 or so.

Feel free to call me a fool for not knowing this, or for not understanding it, and it doesn't work like this. But excited/hopeful that this means my change in heating will be all HP related.


*Had bill for period to 27th Jan, but whilst the gas is to 31/12 and then 1/1 to 27/1, the leccy is only to 31/12. Annoying, as this will be my most expensive bill of the year, and I'm really keen to see what it is, and what the breakdown of cheap rate to day rate leccy is. Still expect bill to be ~£110, and Octopus have advised me that in revuing my account they have revised my DD down from £152pm to £74pm. I suspect it should be closer to £55, but we will see.
8.7kWp PV [2.12kWp SSW + 4.61kWp ESE PV + 2.0kWp WNW PV]
Two BEV's.
Two small A2A heatpumps.
20kWh Battery storage.
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Stinsy
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Re: The Boy That Cried PV Extension

#118

Post by Stinsy »

What CoP are you expecting from one of those HP cylinders? 2.5 maybe? You can get a normal resistive cylinder for £400. It’d take a decade or more for the HP cylinder to pay for itself on 7p electric. Instillation will be easier/cheaper too. And I guarantee the resistive one will still be working in a decade the HP notsosure!
12x 340W JA Solar panels (4.08kWp)
3x 380W JA Solar panels (1.14kWp)
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LuxPower inverter/charger

(Artist formally known as ******, well it should be obvious enough to those for whom such things are important.)
Mart
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Re: The Boy That Cried PV Extension

#119

Post by Mart »

Stinsy wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:18 am What CoP are you expecting from one of those HP cylinders? 2.5 maybe? You can get a normal resistive cylinder for £400. It’d take a decade or more for the HP cylinder to pay for itself on 7p electric. Instillation will be easier/cheaper too. And I guarantee the resistive one will still be working in a decade the HP notsosure!
Yes, I was thinking the same, I'm happy to take the loss on the capital cost, but concerned about longevity. But was thinking that fridges and freezers (and A2A units) go on and on for years. So unsure.

But more importantly, be it a HP or resistive HW tank, am I understanding it correctly, can it heat that small upstairs CH radiator circuit? I have no knowledge whatsoever about such things, and am in the dark. Is it a simple thing to connect, how is it controlled, etc etc, or have I misunderstood completely?
8.7kWp PV [2.12kWp SSW + 4.61kWp ESE PV + 2.0kWp WNW PV]
Two BEV's.
Two small A2A heatpumps.
20kWh Battery storage.
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Stinsy
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Re: The Boy That Cried PV Extension

#120

Post by Stinsy »

Mart wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:49 am
Stinsy wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:18 am What CoP are you expecting from one of those HP cylinders? 2.5 maybe? You can get a normal resistive cylinder for £400. It’d take a decade or more for the HP cylinder to pay for itself on 7p electric. Instillation will be easier/cheaper too. And I guarantee the resistive one will still be working in a decade the HP notsosure!
Yes, I was thinking the same, I'm happy to take the loss on the capital cost, but concerned about longevity. But was thinking that fridges and freezers (and A2A units) go on and on for years. So unsure.

But more importantly, be it a HP or resistive HW tank, am I understanding it correctly, can it heat that small upstairs CH radiator circuit? I have no knowledge whatsoever about such things, and am in the dark. Is it a simple thing to connect, how is it controlled, etc etc, or have I misunderstood completely?
Can it? Sure. But TBH I don't think it is worth it.

If you're just heating the DHW then you need an ultra cheap cylinder with an immersion (or two) and no coil. Super cheap, super simple.

If you're plumbing your rads into the cylinder then you need one with a coil. However every cylinder I've seen has the coil at the bottom and the immersion(s) above). Maybe you can find one win an immersion below the coil, I haven't specifically looked for one with this setup, and you could use a destrat pump to make this issue go away.

On to the next issue. This one is a biggie. The water doesn't actually store much energy. If you have a coil halfway up a 200L tank and you're reducing 60℃ water to 20℃ with your rad circuit then you'll be lucky to get 2kWh of heat at the expense of the Mrs not being able to have a bath, to the 2nd teenager running out of DHW halfway through a long shower.

IMO: if you want to store heat, use a storage heater, if you want resistive heat then use resistive heaters.

(I'm thinking of plumbing a Willis heater into my CH circuit when the gas boiler goes later this year.)
12x 340W JA Solar panels (4.08kWp)
3x 380W JA Solar panels (1.14kWp)
5x 2.4kWh Pylontech batteries (12kWh)
LuxPower inverter/charger

(Artist formally known as ******, well it should be obvious enough to those for whom such things are important.)
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