Starting out on my heat pump journey

[Stinsy]

I was not trying to be condescending But it isn't possible for folks to understand misleading "hype" and manufacturer's claims about ASHP without basic Physics. Or why, IF GSHPs or WSHPs are practical alternatives at your location, they can perform better than ASHPs.

Take "average" COP as advertised for an ASHP. That can be very misleading (disappointing electric consumption over the heating season) if based on "average air temperature" over the heating season. WHY? Because when the outside air temperature is higher, less heat is required for the house. And when the outside air temperature is lower, more heat is required. The heat pump is pumping less heat when the COP is high and more when the COP is low. So the correctly figured "average" has to be weighted by the heat moved at each COP and then that averaged.

Look, this began with my suggestion that IF the log burner was left installed after ASHP put in, an effective use of the log burner would be during cold snaps when the air temperature unusually low (and so the COP of the ASHP unusually low). That is when it most pays to reduce the amount of heat the ASHP is pumping because the COP unfavorable (it doesn't have to pump the heat that the log burner supplied)

Agreed, we have at least one WSHP owner on the forum via a stream and by all accounts it provides a consistent supply of heat with minimal variance. As to WBS and heat pump combo we personally have found it to be a very effective marriage of techs. How popular are ashp's Stateside?

I ask as they are a firm established technology here in Turkey under the guise of inverter aircon systems whereas air source water systems are still seen with some scepticism in large sections of the UK.

Does anyone know of a successful marine HP installation or estuary based?

The HPs used on boats use seawater...

The problem with GSHPs and WSHPs is that the piperuns generally make it cost-prohibitive. I know a guy who paid £20k for the borehole that his GSHP utilises. I don't think he'll see a retun on that investment in 100 years! Sure you get marginally better efficiency from a GSHP vs ASHP on the very coldest days but at what cost? Nowty was "lucky" to find a stream running beneath his house so pipe runs were modest in his case, and he DIYd it for fun so that did away with the additional labour cost too.

I'm also very supportive of fitting an undersized HP and augmenting it with a WBS or SH or whatever for the very coldest conditions. But you're not permitted to do that if you want to receive the grant...

[MikeNovack]

I have heard of a few underperforming systems, but this isn't something intrinsic to HPs, it is cause by things such as: undersized pipework, undersized emitters (rads), excessive zoning, etc.

I fear that you are regurgitating FF industry misinformation!

But THAT is why I was describing the issues in therms of Physics, the ideal Carnot cycle and maximum possible efficiency or COP. No actual device can do better than the theoretical maximum.

I was asked about here. Yes, ASHPs are popular, especially in the form of "mini-splits". Mainly because they can both heat in winter and cool in summer. Again remember, different climate. It is not costly to install a "mini-split" but of course they are mainly doing the room where they are so likely to have several of them.

Both GSHP and WSHP very costly if can't be close to where heat wanted. I do have a stream close by but can't expect to live long enough to get through the permitting process (by definition, a wetland). But because geologically glacial kames, in our case layers of gravel between layers of clay, with water flowing through the gravel, the horizontal type of GSHP would also be possible (sort of WSHP in the ground. Like a deeper septic drain field.

It was funny at the time. The neighbor of the inholding property had his spring run dry. Instead of telling us and asking for help (we could have run a pipe from one of our springs on our land down to his) he called in the well drillers. They call themselves "artesian well drillers" but actually normally drill bore holes and the water has to be pumped up. Well here they tapped into one of the gravel layers trapped between unbroken clay layers going way up the hillside. The result was like a geyser, not just flowing out but gushing high into the air. Took them three days to get it capped off, and that was with the advice of a long retired family member << if you expect this, can have the well capping gizmo in place BEFORE you hit the pressurized water. Not so east to work into place afterwards against the pressurized flow >> Anyway, that flow coming out the diversion pipe could be used by a WSHP. We could expect the same would happen if we had a well drilled.

[Ronski]

Some more pictures, electrics to be done tomorrow, and internal plumbing to finish off. Unfortunately didn't get a picture of the plumbing behind the uniTower. The installer said that it would probably be easier to plumb a tank in the same space rather than the uniTower, probably would have ended up with a larger tank, but I would have needed to box it in tidily though, and make it all removable.

https://postimg.cc/gallery/y4qsZ00n



Isn't Primary Pro supposed to be glued together, so there isn't any gaps?





Edit: The insulation is being sealed, they just left it to last in case of any problems, but some of the joints could be better.

[Fintray]

Isn't Primary Pro supposed to be glued together, so there isn't any gaps?

Yes, with a black mastic specifically for it.

[Ronski]

I think my installer needs to watch some videos.

https://www.youtube.com/@primarypro1627/videos

[NoraBatty]

Its looking great so far. Your base turned out perfect, unit dead centred by the looks.

From the multitude of videos ive seen online, finishing touches like gluing the insulation seems to be done at the end.
I presume the reason being if the pipe needs to be changed or modified you dont ruin the insulation by waiting.
No harm in pointing it out though. Its your money.

[Ronski]

Yeah, I was going to see what happens tomorrow, or casually ask if the outside plumbing and insulation was finished.

I think some of it is just too poorly fitting though.

When our extension was built, it had a warm roof, well it was supposed to, but the gaps were so big I could fit my hands in there. When I ripped it out, I also found they blocked the roof vent spigots, instead of cutting the spigot back, they tried to hollow out the celotex, as for taping joints they simply hadn't bothered. Absolutely clueless, no wonder we have problems with our houses.

PS I did have to nudge one end of the heat pump over as it was sitting slightly further back than the other end.

PPS Waiting isn't really a good idea, after watching quite a few of the videos there's are two reasons for sealing the insulation, the obvious one is to stop heat escaping, the not so obvious one is to stop it getting wet, which decreases the insulation properties and can cause the foam to deteriorate. If it's fitted and rains then it gets wet and you seal the moisture in.

[Yuff]

I’ve found it hard enough to get someone who knows what they are doing in respect of heat pumps even before laziness of tradespeople kicks in.
Original plumber didn’t insulate any pipework, subsequent plumbers couldn’t be bothered either.
Plumber who is replacing the pumps was very concerned about the current insulation so I hope he’ll do a pukka job on that front.
Ronski’s pump and tower look very slick

[Joeboy]

I went around my internal.pipework and found a lot of popped seams (self adhesive seams). I initially thought it was due to load on the outside of 90 deg bends as that's where they were popping. On further inspection I found popped straight seams too. Thermal imaging camera and Black duct tape to the rescue and all now good. I also added insulation at what I considered weak finishes. At the end of the day the installers can only go so far on their cost in time. I didn't mind following up and improving.

I'll have to go under the floor at some point to check the works there. Likely leave that task until I renew the downstairs bathroom and cut the floor out.

[Ronski]

I've not said anything yet, they may well be leaving it until the internal pipework is finished.

I don't mind following up and improving to a certain extent, as you say they have a given time to complete the job. There has been three men on site all week, one older who is in charge and two youngsters who've been doing the easier work along with external plumbing and insulation. The older guys been installing the unitower, and doesn't stop, the other two often stop and he has to tell them to crack on, so they've had plenty of time to a better job of the insulation, but we'll see when they've finished outside.

I had to pull my recently installed Zappi off the wall the other day as the network cable did not work, I found there was no IP protection just a hole with cables coming in the back, and the network cable was wired back to front. I really shouldn't have to put right basic details like that.