Carcinogen output of WBS.

[Mart]

Can I ask some questions, without upsetting anyone, hopefully.

My sister's home has gone from 2 oil boilers to one, thanks to upgrade, insulation etc etc, and that one is plumbed, and wired ready for a 3phase ASHP (eventually). But some concerns remain about the worst days, on those occassional years when temps are very low. She was considering a wood burner, but is concerned about all the news lately.

Now, I'm all for cleaning up the environment, especially vehicle emissions, and my sister appreciates that her current heating means that outside there are a lot of diesel emissions, but how seriously should she take these indoor concerns, with a new modern wood burner? They have some wood supply on site, and some Dutch Elm disease will create more soon.

This leads me on to bio-mass for leccy. I'm slowly coming over to a negative view, but I can't help holding on to the fact that bio-mass provides a short term carbon generation source that can demand follow, and has built in storage, all of which benefit RE leccy. So is the issue local emissions, or transport emissions, which are of course large? Or is it the local wood removal, since I understood that US and Canadian forestry is expanding, and tends to do so when demand for wood / wood products rise.

Is bio-mass burning a no-no full stop, or would it be better if the supply was more local like Ukraine? I've heard they have vast potential to supply Europe, or perhaps it would be better if they burnt it locally, and Europe (as a whole) financed the build out of large HVDC transmission, so Ukraine could act like Norway (hydro) and balance European grids when needed?

Sorry for so many questions, but I'm getting really confused and torn regarding wood/bio-mass at any and all scales.

PS - Is it OK to just sprinkle sawdust on a lawn? We use wood pellets for our cat litter, and I mix the saw dust (the pellets breaks down when wee'd on) in the compost, as fine wood and urine both seem to be a good ingredient, but supply exceeds compost demand, hence spreading on a lawn?

[nowty]

Last yr had to chop down dutch elm disease trees. I chopped them up. The chippings became mulch and therefore compost etc. The wood i chopped up and will burn and the ash will be returned to the ground as valuable nutriments. No waste at all.
What would nature do - decay over many yrs producing methane which is a much worse pollutant.

Need to compare with the alternatives and certainly in my book burning gas is far worse at world pollution level.

I was interested in your comment about methane as its been quite topical in the press recently. All I generally knew about it was that it is a stronger greenhouse gas but its effects last far shorter than Co2. I was trying to work out which one was actually worse for the planet and it looks quite complicated. This link below is the best explanation I have come across. Although it cannot tell me whether its better burning the tree or let it rot in the ground.

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/09/how-p ... s-methane/

[AE-NMidlands]

For me too it's not completely black or white.

In a town WBS are just an indulgance, polluting lots of homes around them - especially when run by incompetents/idiots/sociopaths. Most people have no concept how much fuel they will need either. I would ban them there and incidentally get rid of the lorry traffic delivering the fuel too.

In a rural area they make sense (if used correctly) and a whiff of distant smoke can be a nice smell. Burning a small amount of local wood only re-releases CO2 which was captured in the last couple of centuries... Drax of course is burning clear-felled ancient forest and consuming loads of fossil fuel transporting it, which is a different matter.
Rotting wood is probably aerobic decomposition (so not generating methane) but of course a "rotting" tree is actually being consumed by fungi etc, which provide food for other things (like slugs!) and they are eaten in their turn by other things.

I am also aware that we have evolved in our environment, with one period in caves warmed by wood fires, and that the human body has a significant self-repair system! Parascelsus said "the dose makes the poison" so I am able to accept minor exposures...
A

p.s. I believe that sawdust absorbs nitrogen as it rots, so is a negative fertiliser and best not even used as a soil conditioner! I don't know whether it can hold enough urine to outweigh the problem. However the compost heap needs paper/cardboard to balance the green stuff, and it must be healthy because you find loads of earthworms between the layers (if you explore it before it has rotted properly.

[Joeboy]

Can I ask some questions, without upsetting anyone, hopefully.

My sister's home has gone from 2 oil boilers to one, thanks to upgrade, insulation etc etc, and that one is plumbed, and wired ready for a 3phase ASHP (eventually). But some concerns remain about the worst days, on those occassional years when temps are very low. She was considering a wood burner, but is concerned about all the news lately.

Now, I'm all for cleaning up the environment, especially vehicle emissions, and my sister appreciates that her current heating means that outside there are a lot of diesel emissions, but how seriously should she take these indoor concerns, with a new modern wood burner? They have some wood supply on site, and some Dutch Elm disease will create more soon.

This leads me on to bio-mass for leccy. I'm slowly coming over to a negative view, but I can't help holding on to the fact that bio-mass provides a short term carbon generation source that can demand follow, and has built in storage, all of which benefit RE leccy. So is the issue local emissions, or transport emissions, which are of course large? Or is it the local wood removal, since I understood that US and Canadian forestry is expanding, and tends to do so when demand for wood / wood products rise.

Is bio-mass burning a no-no full stop, or would it be better if the supply was more local like Ukraine? I've heard they have vast potential to supply Europe, or perhaps it would be better if they burnt it locally, and Europe (as a whole) financed the build out of large HVDC transmission, so Ukraine could act like Norway (hydro) and balance European grids when needed?

Sorry for so many questions, but I'm getting really confused and torn regarding wood/bio-mass at any and all scales.

PS - Is it OK to just sprinkle sawdust on a lawn? We use wood pellets for our cat litter, and I mix the saw dust (the pellets breaks down when wee'd on) in the compost, as fine wood and urine both seem to be a good ingredient, but supply exceeds compost demand, hence spreading on a lawn?

I'll be honest and say that most of us with WS's and are present here are aware that they are a grey area. I went on last night quite a bit but one aspect I didn't address was the incredibly effective fulcrum point to owning your own RE that the WS can be if used properly. I have a thread about it at the micro level yet it doesn't take much to see the benefits of managing this yourself and the potential savings for environment at a macro level. If you take care of the full cycle yourself from harvesting to dropping the ash back onto the veg areas you are running as clean as you can.

The other side isn't so great as its biomass harvested vast distances away out with your control in political environments you may not be comfortable with and transported to be consumed in a plant here in the UK. You are throwing your own RE process wide open to abuse and inefficiencies by buying into someone else doing it. I am fully aware of the massive logistics and processes that make it possible for you or I to turn a valve and have gas emerge, I am also well aware of the political abuses and environmental damage caused to make that thoughtless valve turn possible.

Mart I think your sis should have a WS and buy into the whole process completely. I spent the day with an ex work mate converting storm felled trees to transportable fuel. The entire fuel cost for the day was 3/4 gallon of diesel for my van, 1 ltr petrol for my chain saw and three boils of the kettle for tea. At the end I brought around 0.7T of logs back to casa de and tomorrow i will stack and begin processing.

I actually feel guilty at the diesel use yet and going on a rough and conservative guesstimate those logs once processed and dried will offset our gas and electricity use by an insane level. Something else as well? I don't want to use gas from Saudi Arabia brought in by tanker, a horrible regime that I don't want to support. The insane level of offsetting? I reckon that 0.7T of logs will last two months of the worst Winter and going on current performance here and that will save around 5MWh of gas across those two months. Electricity saving will be non use of ovens and kettles where possible and also tumble dryer. I might be with Octopus but I like taking care of my own carbon credits! Anyway, just food for thought.

I sprinkle the spare wood chipping that are not used as firestarter bags directly onto the beds and its gone by Spring. Keeps the weed down too.

[Mart]

Thanks mate. I've said I think a wood burner is a good idea. My sister does have a little asthma, but mild, and she copes with large bonfires as they cleared the land. I harp on about air quality, so I think she found it odd that I didn't think the wood burner was a bad idea, but I think perhaps the concerns may have been overblown (a bit) for use in context. As a top up for ASHP during those tricky edge cases, it seems like a great package too.

Thanks for the info on bio-mass. It's a head scratcher for me. I assume the emissions on site are reasonably well managed, but it's hard not to ponder the enormous energy consumption, largely FF, in processing and transporting. So short term carbon cycle for the wood (v's FF's) but lots of FF emissions in the full process.

I also have to be aware of my own hypocrisy with regard to nuclear energy. If I think the high subsidies for nuclear are better directed into RE and storage, then I have to appreciate that the high subsidies for bio-mass could be used that way too.

Nothing is simple.

[Joeboy]

Thanks mate. I've said I think a wood burner is a good idea. My sister does have a little asthma, but mild, and she copes with large bonfires as they cleared the land. I harp on about air quality, so I think she found it odd that I didn't think the wood burner was a bad idea, but I think perhaps the concerns may have been overblown (a bit) for use in context. As a top up for ASHP during those tricky edge cases, it seems like a great package too.

Thanks for the info on bio-mass. It's a head scratcher for me. I assume the emissions on site are reasonably well managed, but it's hard not to ponder the enormous energy consumption, largely FF, in processing and transporting. So short term carbon cycle for the wood (v's FF's) but lots of FF emissions in the full process.

I also have to be aware of my own hypocrisy with regard to nuclear energy. If I think the high subsidies for nuclear are better directed into RE and storage, then I have to appreciate that the high subsidies for bio-mass could be used that way too.

Nothing is simple.

One of the best things you can pass along to sis is that when she opens the door to add more logs its best to crack the door for a sec, let it equalise and then it will start pulling air from the room. Better that than overmatching the draw by fast dragging the door open and pulling fumes into the room. There is also i think a benefit to sizing the WS properly. Many people think bigger is better yet from an environmental point of view, smaller and burning hot is better than running an oversized unit in close to slumber mode to try and keep temps within human spec.

Again, not to say mine is better coz its not. Its just what i know. I can easily heat three interconnected rooms at about 70 Sqr mtrs in total with our unit. If i close both doors from these 3 rooms out into the rest of the house the space picks up in temp rapidly. If the outdoor temps plunge (as they do) we half close one door leaving the other wide open and thats enough to push the rooms up to offset the external plunge. This is when outdoors goes from +3 to -4 rapidly.

Our unit is specced at about 4.5kW output peaking at 6kW if pushed. I agree with that and it could be half a kW more easily if burning hardwoods and letting the unit hit its stride on a bed of embers.

Also and this one is personal, If sis can stay sub 5kW she doesn't need an open external air in thru a wall. This is a req above 5kW, worth balancing this within the mix. Also a room seal kit so all air pulled in for combustion is from outside is well worth it (this is different from the 1st thing i said). I pull the air from the crawl space below house which is itself vented with about 30 full size air bricks. So we don't lose already heated air disappearing into the unit and up the stack.

Any questions at all, fire (hah hah) away Mart, glad to help.

I've linked to the newest version of the unit we run. This is the C, it burns less efficiently and has a lesser output than the older unit (B). I clocked this and went straight to Ebay for a second hand showroom unit. Embedded energy and all that. Plus i'll take all the bang I can out of the logs. There are all sorts of conflicting reviews on all stoves out there. Just for the record, the only issue we have ever had is if the wind is wrong for us and we see a negative draw in the WS on start up. The way around this is to crack an external door to equalise the house and within a minute of lighting, the draw will have reversed. Happens rarely but that's the workaround we use.

https://burley.co.uk/product/debdale-9104/

[Mart]

Many thanks again, I know she'll really appreciate the advice and experience.

[Ken]

The main culprits are people with open fires and those using undried wood. How many people have the grounds/sheds to dry 2/3 yrs of wood.

I have never bought wood but wonder how the economics stack up if you buy it. Fully air dried wood is c4kwh/kg

I do not believe WS suit 9-5 workers

[Bugtownboy]

I do not believe WS suit 9-5 workers

Totally agree with this, Ken. There’s work throughout the year, plus the commitment and organisation to manage the fire during the day.

It’s totally inappropriate to run CH with the addition of a WBS for atmosphere/ambiance.

Probably not going to describe it correctly, but I like the whole aspect of a WBS as it really makes you appreciate the energy source.

So much of modern life is too easy/convenient and detached from the effort and value that maintains what many of us can take for granted.

[Joeboy]

I do not believe WS suit 9-5 workers

Totally agree with this, Ken. There’s work throughout the year, plus the commitment and organisation to manage the fire during the day.

It’s totally inappropriate to run CH with the addition of a WBS for atmosphere/ambiance.

Probably not going to describe it correctly, but I like the whole aspect of a WBS as it really makes you appreciate the energy source.

So much of modern life is too easy/convenient and detached from the effort and value that maintains what many of us can take for granted.

It ain't no hobby or affectation for sure (alt lifestyle maybe, dunno). It most certainly grows one's appreciation Reminds me just a little, of my time in Africa. Everything has to be earned and worked for,no easy way. I like that.

For myself it's a wonderful constant hill to climb, keeps me fit, driven and of course the RE aspect in Winter. While we lose our solar power in the off season and rely more on the grid it's pretty excellent to have some control. SWMBO is totally into it too. It's not for everyone of course but if you take it to its conclusion, pretty epic.

With fortune, care, a good altitude & attitude I won't cause detriment to those closest.