ASHP & triple glazing

[Stinsy]

We were OK at 17.6 with 18 requested. Engineer is back doing a system powerflush and inhibitor add then system bleed. Before it was shutdown for all this we caught a glimpse of sub 500W demand.



Got swmbo set up on it now on her phone. Seemed to wipe the accrued data which I posted earlier. No matter. I'll get hooked into the open monitor chart later today.

That equal heating throughout of which we've only just experienced is magnificent .

Gas flue to be removed at a later date as there's too much ice on the tiles to do that safely. That's pretty much it. It all came together in what seemed a rush yesterday but wasn't really. More a culmination of many, many meticulous hours work coming together.

We're back to the wbs as a heat source while the system is off. We already miss it!

The "getting a cold house warm" thing isn't where a HP excels. If I were you I'd chuck a few logs on the WBS and get some heat into the building. It is the "low-slow keep the house warm for days and weeks on end" where it works its magic.

The lower you set the flow temp the better the system will self-modulate.

Interestingly I've been looking at the new R290 HPs from Grant. I like the idea of a little 4kW HP for a whole load of reasons: primarily that my plastic microbore has a chance of getting shot of the heat without excessive cycling. We have 14x rads and a number of those have been upszed significantly. I'm not particularly worried about "heatloss calcs" because the rads are currently decorative. The last few winters we've relied on the A2A and resistive heaters entirely. A little bit of background heat form the rads, even 2-3kW would mean we no longer need the resistive (or very rarely).

R290 seems to be an improvement over R32 and R410A in the respect that it doesn't lose power output as outside temperature drops, which takes away one reason why it is common to oversize.

Here is the spec:

[NoraBatty]

We do the same here. The mains switch is flicked off for the whole hour and we sit with the warm glow of the fire, or have a 1hr nap! .

[Joeboy]

Its the government grant thing that people on low incomes can get to have green energy freebies thrown at them.
Previous owner had all but moved out of the house but qualified and sold it as soon as it was done!

Getting a government freebie of suxh stuff sounds nice in principle, but if the poor b*ggars are left with installs like mine then they will wish they'd paid!

2 year warranty, but after complaining to the company and them dragging their heels I complained to NICEIC. Who will give 6 years if the installer is one of their members. They/certsure oversee the eco grants along with MSC. MSC told me to go straight to them as they had more clout.
All a bit confusing but they are getting it done and holding feet to the fire, so i cant complain.

There is SO much cynicism in companies pumping govt RE funds and providing horrendous work standards. It should be prosecutable as its fraud of taxpayers money. Makes me sick to think that something well intended is polluted in this way. Where's the council (being local govt) surveyor to keep an eye on the quality? Sad, sad, sad.

I am very happy with the build I'm seeing here. I don't think there could be a higher quality tried for. Upstairs remains as 10mm but it's a relatively small set of rads in an uber insulated section of the house.

It's easy to get stuck in the mind about 0degC and forget about energy being present all the way down to absolute zero. Nope, still not clicking with that idea!

I completely agree. It is next to impossible to get a competent tradesperson who takes pride in their work. And as soon as any sort of grant is involved the standard of work decends to "council quality".

Looks as if you have gotten yourself a top-notch install. Don't forget that in your case the CoP is magnified by your battery and ToU setup. Let me explain:

Your "7kW" inverter might pull 875W at 50%. However how much heat you get out of that 875W depends on your system design (big enough rads and high flow rate). Maximising the amount of heat you get from a low-and-slow HP doesn't just mean less electric used but, critically, it means less peak electric used. The lower your HP runs the easier it'll be to keep your 16A inverter to cover your entire consumption when your washing machine heating element kicks in (for example).

My point is that the additional time and disruption you have endured to achieve an A1 quality install will be well worth it.

And now you've seen the amount of work it takes to get a good install you can understand why cowboys are tempted to sling the HP in, get gone, and pocket the grant. And on the same note, it is doubly upsetting that newbiulds are being built with teeny rads and microbore as we speak!

Sorry i'm late answering this one. It went mental there for a while. The original quote/contract was for £19,000. I added the full open energy monitor and then a 2/3rds of the system pipework size upgrade & insulation of same. I expect the final bill in total to be around £21,500. Beyond that we'll get down to harder discussions which I don't want to have to do. It is an absolute shedload of money and i'll be £14,000 of my own cash into this once the grant clears to account.

There's literally no way to strap a qualification onto that spend in the normal scheme of things. The best I can do is that I really don't like unsupported bullshit. I've read so much in Myths & legends section on ASHP. A lot of it is utter pish, yeah?

So I thought, the only way to KNOW is to do the thing and do it to as high a standard as I can so there's no ambiguity. Hence the 3G in 2025 too. I watched the engineers operate during the ashp build, more in passing than shoulder surfing, didn't need to do that as it was SO obvious that they are internally driven and SO into it.

It became a masterclass in 'how sh*t should be done' and they never failed me. I am a bastard to work with/for as I don't f**k around or accept any of that and I'm quite happy to get into it (I get that from my Dad, I used to be MORTIFIED as a kid). These guys were on the top level. no doubt. If I made a gentle request, they were on it.

Last couple of years i've been feeling a bit disillusioned with a co-op I was in. Not really them tbh, they're just doing their thing.. More my personality and the standards that I expect. They didn't meet them, it was a decent few year test and I learned some stuff about myself that should have been obvious in hindsight going in the front door.

All the PV, batteries and now the ASHP power multiplier brings my non FF power implementation efforts as close to home as I can hope for (the noo). I've kept the Kinlochbervie Hydro scheme as they have been excellent.

Both Country Paul & Nowty have suggested that the RV & a AC/DC direct battery booster would help me in my goal of MAX PV & CHARGE!!

I particularly like the idea of max charge to exceed the current 3.6 to 3.8 V depending charge rate from grid to stack. I'd also quite like the idea of utilising a V2H connection to get power off the EV thru the day and into the stack? I've not looked into this but it seems a logical progression for a mentalist. (Any hints or tips on all above, mucho appreciato).

I watched Fintrays ASHP install and the 10 month results he has achieved with awe, genuine heartfelt awe. I'd like to add to that vibe for we the forum, those who come later and also those who flitter hither & yon through the forum area on a daily basis.

Last thing from me and it might be a me specific weirdness. Since departing the co-op and more now knowing its all in my hands I really felt stress drop away on potential costs. I've done everything I can to ensure me n SWMBO & Big Man (No 1 son) & daughterly in yon Edinburgh are FF free to a high standard. Gotta go Its OST!

P.S Couldn't have thought of a simpler way to lock in me n swmbo happiness as we age and Winter bites. I did think about blowing it on an RV as its tax free cash,...?

[Stinsy]

There is SO much cynicism in companies pumping govt RE funds and providing horrendous work standards. It should be prosecutable as its fraud of taxpayers money. Makes me sick to think that something well intended is polluted in this way. Where's the council (being local govt) surveyor to keep an eye on the quality? Sad, sad, sad.

I am very happy with the build I'm seeing here. I don't think there could be a higher quality tried for. Upstairs remains as 10mm but it's a relatively small set of rads in an uber insulated section of the house.

It's easy to get stuck in the mind about 0degC and forget about energy being present all the way down to absolute zero. Nope, still not clicking with that idea!

I completely agree. It is next to impossible to get a competent tradesperson who takes pride in their work. And as soon as any sort of grant is involved the standard of work decends to "council quality".

Looks as if you have gotten yourself a top-notch install. Don't forget that in your case the CoP is magnified by your battery and ToU setup. Let me explain:

Your "7kW" inverter might pull 875W at 50%. However how much heat you get out of that 875W depends on your system design (big enough rads and high flow rate). Maximising the amount of heat you get from a low-and-slow HP doesn't just mean less electric used but, critically, it means less peak electric used. The lower your HP runs the easier it'll be to keep your 16A inverter to cover your entire consumption when your washing machine heating element kicks in (for example).

My point is that the additional time and disruption you have endured to achieve an A1 quality install will be well worth it.

And now you've seen the amount of work it takes to get a good install you can understand why cowboys are tempted to sling the HP in, get gone, and pocket the grant. And on the same note, it is doubly upsetting that newbiulds are being built with teeny rads and microbore as we speak!

Sorry i'm late answering this one. It went mental there for a while. The original quote/contract was for £19,000. I added the full open energy monitor and then a 2/3rds of the system pipework size upgrade & insulation of same. I expect the final bill in total to be around £21,500. Beyond that we'll get down to harder discussions which I don't want to have to do. It is an absolute shedload of money and i'll be £14,000 of my own cash into this once the grant clears to account.

There's literally no way to strap a qualification onto that spend in the normal scheme of things. The best I can do is that I really don't like unsupported bullshit. I've read so much in Myths & legends section on ASHP. A lot of it is utter pish, yeah?

So I thought, the only way to KNOW is to do the thing and do it to as high a standard as I can so there's no ambiguity. Hence the 3G in 2025 too. I watched the engineers operate during the ashp build, more in passing than shoulder surfing, didn't need to do that as it was SO obvious that they are internally driven and SO into it.

It became a masterclass in 'how sh*t should be done' and they never failed me. I am a bastard to work with/for as I don't f**k around or accept any of that and I'm quite happy to get into it (I get that from my Dad, I used to be MORTIFIED as a kid). These guys were on the top level. no doubt. If I made a gentle request, they were on it.

Last couple of years i've been feeling a bit disillusioned with a co-op I was in. Not really them tbh, they're just doing their thing.. More my personality and the standards that I expect. They didn't meet them, it was a decent few year test and I learned some stuff about myself that should have been obvious in hindsight going in the front door.

All the PV, batteries and now the ASHP power multiplier brings my non FF power implementation effoets as close to home as I can hope for (the noo). I've kept the Kinlochbervie Hydro scheme as they have been excellent.

Both Country Paul & Nowty have suggested that the RV & a AC/DC direct battery booster would help me in my goal of MAX PV & CHARGE!!

I particularly like the idea of max charge to exceed the current 3.6 to 3.8 V depending charge rate from grid to stack. I'd also quite like the idea of utilising a V2H connection to get power off the EV thru the day and into the stack? I've not looked into this but it seems a logical progression for a mentalist. (Any hints or tips on all above, mucho appreciato).

I watched Fintrays ASHP install and the 10 month results he has achieved with awe, genuine heartfelt awe. I'd like to add to that vibe for we the forum, those who come later and also those who flitter hither & yon through the forum area on a daily basis.

Last thing from me and it might be a me specific weirdness. Since departing the co-op and more now knowing its all in my hands I really felt stress drop away on potential costs. I've done everything I can to ensure me n SWMBO & Big Man (No 1 son) & daughterly in yon Edinburgh are FF free to a high standard. Gotta go Its OST!

P.S Couldn't have thought of a simpler way to lock in me n swmbo happiness as we age and Winter bites. I did think about blowing it on an RV as its tax free cash,...?

To get power from your EV into your house battery I'd buy an additional hybrid inverter or battery inverter to use as a battery charger. Connect the mains side to your V2L and the battery side to your battery.

It's not the most efficient solution, however if you had a long term power outage where you live and you can get to a rapid that has power you can use the EV as a bucket to bring electric home. Deffo would've been worthwhile in the days of free charging at Tesco, or for those who get free charging at work. And if you live somewhere very rural at the end of a very long 11kV line that isn't top of the list to repair after a storm then I'd say: deffo, do it! But not sure it is worthwhile otherwise.

And I'm totally on board with spending money now to ensure you get a warm house for cheap for the rest of your life!

[Joeboy]

Thursday should be the first day of true running with the home heat soaked from ashp. That's based on firing up tomorrow. Fingers .
Running 80kWh days with no ev charge it breaks down to something like this.
35kWh stack
12kWh HWT
33kWh SH

If we can hit a cop of 4 for the rads that 33 should drop to 8kWh. A cop of 3 for hwt would be 4kWh consumption. That would drop the day consumption to 47kWh.

I look forward to seeing how far off the mark I am with that guess. 5degs outdoors, no EV, 47kWh round-trip, 19degs in the house. Try out Fintrays 0.4 set point.

Lastly, adding bigger radiators in two places to keep space spots we value added £1,000 to the bill. The bigger rads defo come at a price premium although I do think they've got an Arthur C Clarke monolith vibe.

Here's to the switch on tomorrow Joe!
Some figures from the last 7 days:
Average daily electricity import 78.5kWh
Average daily electricity export 20.6kWh
Average daily heat pump consumption 30.1kWh
Average daily heat pump output 125.3kWh
Mean temperature 3.5C
COP 4.16
Heating curve setpoint 0.35

A good sign, dropped from 80kWh average non EV power use to 57kWh yesterday. About 5kWhs of that was EV charging. So 52 down from 80. Not bad for freezing temperatures.


The house is sitting at 18 degs but not stable yet. Got a late few slots on IO so hoping to do today on the overnight rate.Pump is running at 1100W and heat curve is now set to 0.45 to see how it goes.

[Joeboy]

Sorry, I'm boring myself now! Fintray & Stinsy have with their advice ffw'd me to a 0.4 heat curve setting. For those that don't know look at the Wattage difference.

0.45




0.4






Nora, note wbs throttled back...that's a big difference here.

[NoraBatty]

Pleased for you Joe. And that the WBS will still feature! I enjoy reading about yout latest stovetop meals.

[Stinsy]

Sorry, I'm boring myself now! Fintray & Stinsy have with their advice ffw'd me to a 0.4 heat curve setting. For those that don't know look at the Wattage difference.

0.45




0.4






Nora, note wbs throttled back...that's a big difference here.

Good stuff!

I think there is more work to do!

1) Set your switchoff temp to 15℃.
2) Set your max flow temp to 35℃.

The switch-off temp doesn't make a difference this time of year because it is cold, but our house is always a bit warmer than outdoors what with the solar gain, people, and appliances kicking off heat. And you can do a one-log-wonder on the WBS for a bit of coziness in the spring/autumn evenings with no need to trouble the HP.

What with your pipework and rad upgrades you should easily shift enough heat from the HP to the rooms with a way lower max flow temp and this is where the efficiency is to be found!

[Joeboy]

It was a good day today. Caught a few cheap slots so maxed out battery. The stack is currently sitting at 36% soc.

The day looked like this



Final invoice in from installers..They did not bill us for the pipe upgrades throughout the groundfloor. That's over 60 mtrs of 28, 22 & 15 along with all the fittings and pipe insulation plus 2 days labour. The surveyor missed the 10mm pipes in the survey so I'm guessing it's an honour thing? I'm not sure...

I'm chasing info on the open energy system as the QR code supplied takes me to a page with no live data and I don't have account details..

Nice to see the day cop tick upwards.

Loft pic

[Fintray]

I'm chasing info on the open energy system as the QR code supplied takes me to a page with no live data and I don't have account details..

When I ordered the OE monitor it I supplied them with my wifi details and if I remember correctly it all connected up automatically and started to upload the data.